An opening question

gostudent · #1

The following is from a game I played today. I was white, and it was my turn to play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . . 6 . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . | $$ | . . e d . . . . . , . . . . . i . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . h . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . g . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . p . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 3 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . 1 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A side question on W1: would it be better to split at around B4 instead?

Anyway... my main question is that I am not sure what my next move should be.

(i) A move around a or b, since black owes a move there when compared with joseki. p may also be a possibility.

(ii) An enclosure of one of my corners -- c seems to be the best enclosure, given that black is developing the top side,

(iii) A sanrensei, either at d or e. (d should be better, am I right?)

(iv) Invasion at the left side, when the opportunity is still there -- so I can play at f

(v) A reducing move for the left side moyo, since black now has a double-wing formation and it could be huge. g, h, i are the possibilities.

In the actual game, I've played the cap h. I got some thickness at the center because of that, but black also got a lot of points surrounding the top left corner. I was unable to use the thickness effectively, though, because black managed to play at D before I do.

What should I have played, and what would be my best plan?

Thanks!

Uberdude · #2

RE

your approach is fine, though split right at 4 or approach at a are far more common.

Your 5 is a mistake though, you lose a golden opportunity to crush black into a pathetic small shape. You noticed that black's 4 wasn't joseki (in fact his kick at 2 is bad on this board). p is the shape point to build thickness and is a good point. Your 5 would be good (though I prefer 4th line to work with your left side shape) if black had defended the p weakness with 4 at b, but as he didn't your 5 is not needed. In fact after you play p and build a massive wall of thickness your move 5 will become too close and a wasted move. Here is what could happen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 3 . X 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . 0 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W This sequence is a handicap 'joseki' to punish black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 6 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O 3 X O 1 8 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 4 X 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Look at the powerful thickness white builds that also isolates black 4 from the corner. Black has no moyo you even need to worry about reducing now.

As for your main question, I like d. You don't need to reduce black's moyo as yours is bigger.

Bill Spight · #3

I agree with Uberdude.

Edit: Except for the part about 'd'. You should keep the game from being easy for Black.

That said,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 3 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is probably better than the capping play, as it reduces the large Black moyo.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The invasion also looks playable, as you have room for a two space extension.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If

pincers,

invades further down, threatening both the bottom right corner and the :bc:

stone. If

protects the corner, the position is in flux. That is generally good for the invader. At the same time, it is not all that clear where to play. My thought with :w11:

is to strengthen the :w7:

stone for the fight, probably sacrificing the :w9:

stone. This position could also be reached by starting at 9.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . X 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I still like the attachment. If Black plays as in the diagram, I will either connect at "a" or invade a 11, utilizing the aji of :w7:

and

.

It is more important to have a plan than to have a good plan.

If your plan is not so good, you will probably learn something.

gostudent · #4

Uberdude wrote:

RE

your approach is fine, though split right at 4 or approach at a are far more common.

Your 5 is a mistake though, you lose a golden opportunity to crush black into a pathetic small shape. You noticed that black's 4 wasn't joseki (in fact his kick at 2 is bad on this board). p is the shape point to build thickness and is a good point. Your 5 would be good (though I prefer 4th line to work with your left side shape) if black had defended the p weakness with 4 at b, but as he didn't your 5 is not needed. In fact after you play p and build a massive wall of thickness your move 5 will become too close and a wasted move. Here is what could happen:

Thank you for the sequence you suggested! It is very enlightening. W5 can be another example for the thread viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10343 on why learning a joseki without understanding it well is bad.

One reason I play W5 is that I am worried about the pincher

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . 6 . 3 a X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The pincher is regularly mentioned to explain why the 3 space extension is important in the normal joseki variation. I am tempted to play at "a" to connect to W5 and fight, but then this lead to a traingle shape, which may not be good. Would better moves be possible?

I have another question about an extension at 3rd line versus 4th line. Often, when I played an extension at 4th line, my opponent would find a way to invade, e.g.,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and it is kind of difficult to kill the invasion. In this kind of scenario, should I aim at enclosing the opponent and develop the left side instead?

Thanks!

gostudent · #5

Thank you for the examples of reduction and invasion!

As a beginner, I often struggle on when to invade or when to reduce. I have lost many games due to weak groups that are not properly taken care of.... So now whenever I play, I tend to be very cautious when I may create a weak group, and be careful about cutting points. However, that would mean that I easily lose the timing of such opportunities. A big part of that is, of course, due to my inaccurate reading -- it is not easy for me to tell if (i) can my group live, and (ii) would I be living too small and giving my opponent an overly strong wall?

What could be good ways to improve on that? Thanks.

DrStraw · #6

gostudent wrote:

Thank you for the examples of reduction and invasion!

As a beginner, I often struggle on when to invade or when to reduce. I have lost many games due to weak groups that are not properly taken care of.... So now whenever I play, I tend to be very cautious when I may create a weak group, and be careful about cutting points. However, that would mean that I easily lose the timing of such opportunities. A big part of that is, of course, due to my inaccurate reading -- it is not easy for me to tell if (i) can my group live, and (ii) would I be living too small and giving my opponent an overly strong wall?

What could be good ways to improve on that? Thanks.

Look up the concept of sector lines. Only play behind sector lines if you are sure you are losing.

EdLee · #7

gostudent wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ . . . . . , . 6 . 3 a X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------------------[/go]

I am tempted to play at "a" to connect to W5 and fight, but then this lead to a triangle shape, which may not be good.

Hi GoStudent, are you referring to :w7:

in this local situation ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ . . . . . , . 6 . 3 7 X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------------------[/go]

This

is perfectly playable here.

Perhaps you are confusing the following two shapes:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ . . O O . . . . . O O . . . . $$ . . O z . . . . . O B . . . . $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The left one is an "empty triangle"; notice that (z) is empty. It is often, but not always, a bad shape.

The right one is not an empty triangle because of the :bc:

stone. It is very different from an empty triangle.

Go is extremely particular and specific. If someone showed you an example of an empty triangle,
I hope they showed you a correct example, with (z) empty.

It's also possible they showed you a correct example of an empty triangle,
and you only noticed the configuration of the three :white:

stones,
without noticing the very important empty (z);
so you didn't appreciate the big difference between the left and right shapes.

The important thing is not a "triangle shape"; it is an empty triangle, with (z) empty.

Hushfield · #8

When approaching at 1 as white, almost everybody on WBaduk or Tygem I meet plays 2 here, but isn't black 2 a mistake without a pincer stone already in place at A or B?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . a . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . b . . . 1 2 . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------------------[/go]

I always thought that it was, and the sequence suggested by uberdude definitely shows one way to punish, but often black will just play a closer extension like the standard 9 handicap joseki at a, or also at b or c

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . a b . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------------------[/go]

Somehow, I can't really manage to punish this all that much. Any more thoughts on this? Or is black 2 not really a "mistake" even when there's no pincer stone?

Uberdude · #9

The kick is usually a mistake without a pincer stone already in place as it makes white stronger and means she can extend further without fearing an invasion. But it does somewhat protect the corner and prevent white sliding. If the lower side is an uninteresting area it can be a good move and is occasionally played professionally. I am now around the level at which I feel I can make a reasonable go at identify such situations. Probably your tygem opponents play it when it is bad, but it's not a huge mistake you punish immediately.

Aidoneus · **#10**

Hushfield wrote:

When approaching at 1 as white, almost everybody on WBaduk or Tygem I meet plays 2 here, but isn't black 2 a mistake without a pincer stone already in place at A or B?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . a . . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . b . . . 1 2 . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------------------[/go]

I always thought that it was, and the sequence suggested by uberdude definitely shows one way to punish, but often black will just play a closer extension like the standard 9 handicap joseki at a, or also at b or c

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . a b . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------------------[/go]

Somehow, I can't really manage to punish this all that much. Any more thoughts on this? Or is black 2 not really a "mistake" even when there's no pincer stone?

If a patzer like me can chime in...I was thinking the same thing about lack of a Black pincer at a or b in the first diagram. In the following diagram, after Black plays at a, b, or c, isn't the White extension to e ideal? A rather questionable move if Black had a pincer already in place at f, and impossible if Black pincer is at e, I read somewhere a general rule about extending as far away on the third line as a string extends from the edge. I don't know if this general rule requires that the string start from the second line, though. Nor do I know if this general rule, even if I am interpreting it correctly, would be applicable in this specific position. Perhaps someone would be willing to give me a bit more guidance on this? :bow:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . a b . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . f . . . 3 . X . . . | $$ . . . . . e . . . 1 2 . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ------------------------------[/go]

DrStraw · **#11**

The kick? I have never heard that term before. What is its origin? I assume you are referring to the kosumitsuke? What not just refer to it as a diagonal attachment?

HermanHiddema · **#12**

DrStraw wrote:

The kick? I have never heard that term before. What is its origin? I assume you are referring to the kosumitsuke? What not just refer to it as a diagonal attachment?

The same reason we use "shoulder hit" instead of "diagonal 4th line approach to a stone on the 3rd line".

It seems to me that "kick" has entered the vocubulary in the last decade. It was not a term I ever heard when I first learned to play, but is now a term I see regularly and which I myself use when teaching beginners (or rather, I use the Dutch equivalent, of course).

DrStraw · **#13**

HermanHiddema wrote:

DrStraw wrote:

The kick? I have never heard that term before. What is its origin? I assume you are referring to the kosumitsuke? What not just refer to it as a diagonal attachment?

The same reason we use "shoulder hit" instead of "diagonal 4th line approach to a stone on the 3rd line".

It seems to me that "kick" has entered the vocubulary in the last decade. It was not a term I ever heard when I first learned to play, but is now a term I see regularly and which I myself use when teaching beginners (or rather, I use the Dutch equivalent, of course).

But we use shoulder hit, not punch. I have always called this one a diagonal attachment. It seems more intuitive than kick, just as shoulder hit seems more intuitive than punch. I only used the term kosumitsuke to make it clear - I find Japanese terms to usually be more exact in case of possible ambiguity.

HermanHiddema · **#14**

DrStraw wrote:

But we use shoulder hit, not punch. I have always called this one a diagonal attachment. It seems more intuitive than kick, just as shoulder hit seems more intuitive than punch. I only used the term kosumitsuke to make it clear - I find Japanese terms to usually be more exact in case of possible ambiguity.

I think this is just a matter of what you are used to. I would also consider kick more specific than kosumitsuke (or diagonal attachment), as it specifically refers to a kosumi attaching downwards. This is not a kick in my book:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . O 1 , . . . | $$ . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------+[/go]

As such, I think it is in fact as intuitive as "shoulder hit". A kick is generally a movement which is lower than your centre of gravity which touches an object (e.g. a football). That perfectly describes this move. It also fits nicely with the footsweep, one move lower, which is (in martial arts) a kick aimed at the feet of the opponent.

DrStraw · **#15**

HermanHiddema wrote:

I think this is just a matter of what you are used to. I would also consider kick more specific than kosumitsuke (or diagonal attachment), as it specifically refers to a kosumi attaching downwards. This is not a kick in my book:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . O 1 , . . . | $$ . . . . X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------+[/go]

As such, I think it is in fact as intuitive as "shoulder hit". A kick is generally a movement which is lower than your centre of gravity which touches an object (e.g. a football). That perfectly describes this move. It also fits nicely with the footsweep, one move lower, which is (in martial arts) a kick aimed at the feet of the opponent.

Interesting. I have no interest in soccer. I was raised in to watch rugby in Britain and now watch football in the USA. So to me a kick involves an upward motion and the diagram you show is more intuitively a kick than the one on the third line.

These ambiguities are one reason I have always preferred the Japanese term unless there is a very well established and clear English equivalent.

HermanHiddema · **#16**

DrStraw wrote:

Interesting. I have no interest in soccer. I was raised in to watch rugby in Britain and now watch football in the USA. So to me a kick involves an upward motion and the diagram you show is more intuitively a kick than the one on the third line.

AFAIK, in rugby and American football the ball is also generally kicked from the ground? Or if it is a drop kick or punt, at least from close to the ground.

Kicks above your own centre of mass are the domain of martial arts, I would think

DrStraw · **#17**

HermanHiddema wrote:

DrStraw wrote:

Interesting. I have no interest in soccer. I was raised in to watch rugby in Britain and now watch football in the USA. So to me a kick involves an upward motion and the diagram you show is more intuitively a kick than the one on the third line.

AFAIK, in rugby and American football the ball is also generally kicked from the ground? Or if it is a drop kick or punt, at least from close to the ground.

Kicks above your own centre of mass are the domain of martial arts, I would think

Exactly. A kick goes from low to high - 3rd to 4th line.

leichtloeslich · **#18**

DrStraw wrote:

A kick goes from low to high - 3rd to 4th line.

Not if we freeze-frame the second the foot touches the ball (or egg, in case of American football).

In that moment the ball is quite clearly below the kicker. I think it's that image that the term tries to capture.
And if white responds normally with a nobi, then we have an upward motion of the ball (white stone) that was kicked.

I find it a quite intuitive mental image, with the initial hoshi stone being the guy that's going to kick something, the keima approach being a ball placed in front of him, and there we go, he kicks, and, yay, lift-off.

DrStraw · **#19**

Okay, I give in. I'll just continue to call it kosumitsuke. :roll:

tj86430 · **#20**

HermanHiddema wrote:

Kicks above your own centre of mass are the domain of martial arts, I would think

An opening question

Who is online