September DDK Swiss

Chew Terr · **#61**

You're both welcome. Like a self-review, doing reviews can help other people, if only because it's practice at assessing positions. If I'm going to call a move a mistake, I have to figure out where exactly the best alternative would be, which is useful for me. So no worries, this is interesting and helpful.

iambadatgo · **#62**

Is it still a little premature to post a FFW? I sent Kiethlard a message once we were paired up and I have not heard back from him. However, I am leaving out-of-town tonight, so I won't be able to play tomorrow.

Aphelion · **#63**

I notice Kiethlard hasn't posted in this thread really, perhaps he is only interested in the league and not in this tournament?

Rafa · **#64**

Well i checked his profile and it said his last login was 10 September, maybe his having some real life issues and cant play, it can be nuisance really.

psk31 · **#65**

Well kukula and I managed to get one of our games in on Tuesday night, I lost in absolutely dramatic fashion (game posting to come later). Unfortunately I was on a business trip at the time and learned not to play go in the evening when you've been up since 4:45am. The brain totally went to sleep about half way through the match and I dropped from a 24K to a 40K. :oops:

I had hoped to play our remaining game after I got back home but some family conflicts and duties prevented that and I've realized that the wife and I have a social engagement tonight for a couple of hours. So hopefully we can play a little later but it's not looking promising right now.

SinK not sure how you want to score this, but there would be one win for kukula (as white) but if we don't get to play tonight and I wasn't able to play due to scheduling conflicts a forfeit for me on the second? I don't know how tournament scoring goes in situations like this.

SinK · **#66**

We'll call it a victory for your opponent psk31.

As for everyone else look for your match-ups tomorrow. Again Friday close of play Friday is the deadline.

SinK · **#67**

threeve (15k) - 2.0
nnk (18k) - 2.0
Stephany93 (12k)- 1.5
noodley (15k) - 1.5
SinK (16k) - 1.0
iambadatgo (18k)- 1.0
kukula (22k) - 1.0
Maere (16k) - 0.5
Rafa (16k) - 0.5
Monadology (18k)- 0.0
psk31 (26k) - 0.0

threeve vs. nnk
Stephany93 vs. noodley
iambadatgo vs. kukula
Maere vs. Rafa
Monadology vs. psk31

SinK (bye)

nnk · **#68**

how about playing one of us? i'm sure we can bend the rules somewhat

. i'd gladly play you if it helps (something like: 0pt for me regardless, normal scoring for you, so as not to unballance the system?

Maere · **#69**

So, I just played Rafa and it's a tie. The games were very exciting.
Though I'm going to write a hundred times: "don't make too many weak groups, don't make too many weak groups, don't..."

nnk · **#70**

nnk vs threeve, tentative schedule: today in about an hour or two (depending on availability of both). probably will get one game in, supposing i won't fall asleep, two possible but not likely

Chew Terr · **#71**

Maere and Rafa: some thoughts on your second game.

3: This is kind of a style/preference thing, because you have to be willing to play a diagonal opening, but I prefer D4. Your opponent's 3-4 stone leaves an ideal approach from below (at C16 or D16), so taking this corner will let that approach work with your bottom corner.
4-7: Very solid choices. This sort of opening will carry you both quite a ways.
8: At first, I disliked this move, because it allows your opponent to hurt you in the top left. However, I kind of like the idea of this move, if you're planning something special. For example, consider it as a probe: if your opponent falls back to the right (as he does) you can prioritize the top, expanding to something like F16 to capitalize on the information. If your opponent pincers low on the top or something, you can change directions, for example, playing something like R14 to take the right side, which then has more development potential. This is kind of high-concept, and I'm hesitant to say it because it's a bit complex and risky for my level, as well (any other players have thoughts on this?). Just a few thoughts about the potential behind this sort of move. Regardless, simply responding in the top left with something like C15 or F16 is simpler and easier to follow up on.
10: One standard way to handle this situation (two opposing stones on the fourth line, with a one-space gap between) is to connect underneath, on the third line)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a common joseki using this attachment $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

As an aside, if white really wants to tenuki during this sequence, the safest time is after playing 4. If need be, white could sacrifice 2, and still come out reasonably okay.
12: Be careful, black can start a fight by attaching at E17.
15: While this move is a normal approach considering the bottom corner, it doesn't consider the left side. You built up a bit of strength with your group in the top left, so you have a (albeit weakish) wall looming over the white stone at D12. If white pincers your approach here (for example at c7), the pincer serves two purposes: two attack your approach and to reinforce the weak stone on the side. Consider playing this move higher up, so that you are instead pincering D12. After that, you can always extend downwards to approach the corner, but pincering the group serves to be a more aggressive way to handle it.
As an alternative to dealing with the left side at all, consider pressuring the stone on the right side. A play at R8 is an extension in the primary direction of your bottom right enclosure, and it denies the lone white stone a two-space extension. That will make the stone weak and attackable.
25: If you're trying to build central thickness here, consider attaching at E12. The cap is often meant to deny center access to stones, yes, but in this case it kind of forces white to push through the hole where you want your wall to be.
30: I know that you are concerned with that center wall black just built, but any time you have sente, you should look around. If you have any weak groups, STRONGLY consider helping them out first before you play any kind of preventative measure. If black attacks R10, she can chase you around, making a huge framework below in the process. R7 is the safest extension, and it helps to reduce the value of black's corner enclosure (by denying it much extension).
31: When attacking a stone, Bruce Wilcox recommends you consider "left, right, and center". You chose to deny white center access, presumably in hopes of building a central framework, but that's dicey. White can't go anywhere to the right (towards the top), so attacking from the left (below) will make his group weak, forcing it to run. While white runs, you can give chase, ideally making a nice framework below (and netting any points between your pincer and the corner enclosure), all in more-or-less sente. The problem with blocking from above like this is that white can just extend to R7, buying a lot better stability.
44: You don't have to protect this cut (you can simply capture P10) so you would be better off with something around M11 or M12, as that helps you get out and preserves the link between your group and the lone stone. Remember, it's often best to escape when possible, as opposed to living small inside of enemy groups (which often gives the opponent thickness outside).
50: If you have a weak group nearby, make it safe before you invade so deeply. Something like L7 helps shrink black's prospects a little, while buying you some all-important eyespace. If you create two weak groups near each other, it doubles the chance that one of them will die outright.
117: Should be one space lower, if you're trying to save that stone.

nnk · **#72**

nanok vs threeve, game 1. a bloody one, played very badly by yours truly, kindly commented by loons (to the extent he could see through the blood and destruction going on

[sgf-full]http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=420[/sgf-full]

second game. this time a total mess by me. not even worth reviewing

. total score threeve-nnk 1-0

Monadology · **#73**

psk31 have had both our games now. I managed to win both.

psk31 · **#74**

Yeah, these were fun games. Still made plenty of 24K mistakes. Actually the one common theme in both games was how I allowed myself to get surrounded several times. And honestly, I think these are the first two games I've ever had that happen in multiple groups like that. Something to watch out for in the future that's for sure.

Dusk Eagle · **#75**

Here's my review of your second game. The three main themes:
1) Don't play moves that don't do anything.
2) Don't play moves that allow the opponent to separate your groups without getting separated himself (like move 14).
3) Don't save stones that are not doing anything. If a stone isn't holding onto territory (or influence) or cutting your opponent's groups, it is likely to be a useless stone.
[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]TM[1500]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]
PW[psk31]PB[Monadology]WR[24k]BR[17k]DT[2010-09-22]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]RE[B+Resign]
;B[pd]BL[1496.82]
;W[dp]WL[1495.248]
;B[pp]BL[1487.909]
;W[dd]WL[1488.667]
;B[pj]BL[1482.65]
;W[kp]WL[1469.734]
;B[nq]BL[1463.145]
;W[ck]WL[1459.303]
;B[jd]BL[1457.248]
;W[gc]WL[1455.414]
;B[jj]BL[1451.832]
;W[jf]WL[1433.681]
;B[ie]BL[1426.622]
;W[he]WL[1418.472]C[Forgive me, but this move is horrible.]
;B[if]BL[1422.184]TR[he][ie][if][jf]C[Good move by black. As you can see, white's shape has been ripped apart.]
;W[ig]WL[1415.291]
;B[hf]BL[1399.551]TR[jf][ig]SQ[he]C[By helping the triangled stones you inevitably hurt the squared stone. That's one of the reasons why this shape is so bad.]
;W[jg]WL[1404.611]
;B[hd]BL[1388.525]
;W[ge]WL[1399.793]TR[ge][he]C[These stones are not doing anything, yet the more you save try to save them the heavier they get. It would have been better to abandon your one stone rather than extend here.]
;B[gd]BL[1379.319]
;W[fe]WL[1395.946]TR[gc][fe][ge][he]C[Once again - bad shape.]
;B[gg]BL[1371.903]
;W[fh]WL[1381.56]TR[fe][ge][he][jf][ig][jg][fh]C[This move is also questionable, as it is clear that it leaves many cutting points between your three groups.]
;B[fg]BL[1349.88]
;W[ef]WL[1365.007]
;B[eg]BL[1334.442]TR[ef][fh]C[Again.]
;W[df]WL[1352.876]
;B[dg]BL[1327.24]
;W[bf]WL[1348.182]
;B[gh]BL[1314.58]
;W[fi]WL[1335.503]TR[fh]C[This stone isn't doing anything. It is not worth saving. Just leave it. Black trying to capture it will be too slow.]
;B[gj]BL[1307.022]
;W[fk]WL[1319.352]TR[fh][fi]C[Leaves cutting points, which would be fine except it seems you're trying to hold on to your triangled stones.]
;B[fj]BL[1287.89]
;W[gi]WL[1316.867]
;B[hi]BL[1283.303]
;W[ei]WL[1294.328]TR[fj][fk]C[Now the triangled exchange has once again given you bad shape.]
(;B[hk]BL[1275.851]C[Passive. Rip through his shape. If you kill his four stones, you don't have to worry about this cut at all.]
;W[ij]WL[1283.871]C[Overplay. This will just create more stones that aren't doing anything.]
;B[ik]BL[1261.109]
;W[ii]WL[1235.715]
;B[hh]BL[1249.226]
(;W[ih]WL[1186.161]
;B[ld]BL[1229.286]TR[jf][ig][jg][ih][ii][ij]C[These stones look very weak.]
;W[ic]WL[1124.188]
(;B[id]BL[1225.685]
;W[lf]WL[1100.245]
;B[ne]BL[1190.288]
;W[ki]WL[1050.011]
;B[kj]BL[1180.408]
;W[hn]WL[1040.845]TR[fp][gp][hp][ip][aq][bq][cq][fq][iq][cr][fr][ir][cs][fs][gs][hs][is]C[White tenukied too early. Black should now attack the weak group. Black can still live underneath without too much effort, because white's move is too high.]
;B[gk]BL[1141.184]C[This is more or less a pass.]
;W[ek]WL[1030.212]C[Again, saving a meaningless stone.]
;B[ej]BL[1133.617]TR[fh][ei][fi][gi][ek][fk]
;W[dj]WL[1023.796]
;B[di]BL[1131.752]
;W[ch]WL[984.263]
;B[ci]BL[1114.166]
;W[bh]WL[915.567]
;B[dh]BL[1110.05]C[This is a pass.]
(;W[cg]WL[906.765]C[As is this.]
;B[fm]BL[1103.11]
;W[gl]WL[883.342]
;B[fl]BL[1096.731]
;W[gm]WL[854.28]
;B[dl]BL[1065.399]
;W[dk]WL[835.913]
;B[fn]BL[1050.067]
;W[el]WL[803.216]
;B[em]BL[1045.831]
;W[cm]WL[763.994]
;B[fp]BL[1029.504]
;W[do]WL[723.829]
;B[cl]BL[1011.67]
;W[bl]WL[716.275]
;B[dm]BL[1008.95]
(;W[cn]WL[699.407]
;B[bk]BL[1003.157]C[nanok [13k\]: oops
]
;W[bi]WL[686.611]C[Effectively another pass.]
;B[mj]BL[978.256]
;W[dn]WL[623.085]C[Pass.]
;B[eq]BL[962.857]
;W[dq]WL[612.585]
;B[hq]BL[954.43]TR[jf][lf][ig][jg][ih][ii][ki][ij][gl][gm][hn][kp]C[Now both groups look very weak.]
;W[eo]WL[549.64]C[Does nothing other than allow black to connect.]
;B[fo]BL[950.13]
;W[dr]WL[546.133]
;B[er]BL[942.949]
;W[ds]WL[518.963]C[Too slow. Only worth a few points.]
;B[kq]BL[938.853]C[When attacking a group, don't touch it. Let me demonstrate.]
(;W[jp]WL[490.616]
;B[jq]BL[933.474]
;W[jl]WL[483.077]
;B[jk]BL[925.542]
;W[jc]WL[476.933]C[Tenuking weak groups again.]
;B[kc]BL[915.172]
;W[ke]WL[472.983]
;B[kd]BL[912.424]
;W[kg]WL[469.403]
;B[ji]BL[903.145]
;W[kh]WL[461.662]C[Saving a meaningless stone.]
;B[le]BL[896.484]
;W[lg]WL[456.296]
;B[je]BL[893.569]
;W[nf]WL[426.712]
;B[of]BL[874.049]
(;W[mf]WL[414.321]
;B[mh]BL[844.77]C[nanok [13k\]: i can't see any solutions for w anymore

]
;W[mk]WL[365.752]C[I don't understand.]
;B[nj]BL[829.499]
;W[me]WL[362.96]
;B[nd]BL[825.375]C[kukula [18k\]: perhaps black will accommodate with a few major errors?
]
;W[nh]WL[337.98]C[nanok [13k\]: doesn't look like it. the kill on the k13 group is very deliberate
nanok [13k\]: but we shall see
]
;B[ni]BL[744.287]
;W[nk]WL[324.107]
;B[oh]BL[737.385]
;W[ng]WL[319.818]
;B[og]BL[732.489]
;W[li]WL[312.979]
;B[lj]BL[728.463]
;W[mp]WL[294.885]
(;B[no]BL[718.885]C[Leaves holes.]
;W[nn]WL[285.32]
(;B[mq]BL[704.948]
;W[mi]WL[281.253]
;B[mo]BL[683.248]
;W[lp]WL[277.891]
;B[on]BL[680.16]
;W[ok]WL[265.92]
;B[pk]BL[674.687]
;W[pm]WL[249.833]
;B[om]BL[669.049]
;W[nm]WL[246.94]
;B[ol]BL[657.012]
;W[nl]WL[232.988]
(;B[po]BL[624.481]C[A pass. End of comments.]
;W[md]WL[189.134]
;B[mc]BL[620.914]
;W[oe]WL[184.418]
;B[od]BL[611.343]
;W[jb]WL[175.967]
;B[hc]BL[601.305]
;W[hb]WL[173.719]
;B[fc]BL[595.191]
;W[ec]WL[168.694]
;B[gb]BL[590.716]
;W[fd]WL[165.312]
;B[kb]BL[562.359]
;W[ee]WL[149.221]
;B[eb]BL[554.14]
;W[db]WL[145.978]
;B[da]BL[536.958]
;W[ca]WL[115.5]
;B[ea]BL[509.321]
;W[cb]WL[110.444]
;B[ha]BL[500.062]
;W[fa]WL[90.234]
;B[fb]BL[482.986]
;W[ak]WL[19.404]
;B[cj]BL[479.691]
;W[bj]WL[11.281]
;B[ck]BL[476.884]
;W[aj]WL[8.818]
;B[ln]BL[462.309])
(;B[ss]
;W[oo]C[This doesn't work.]
;B[po]
;W[op]
;B[np]
;W[oq]
;B[or]
;W[pq]
;B[qq]))
(;B[mo]TR[nn][mp]))
(;B[mq])
(;B[np]))
(;W[ng]C[Better shape.]))
(;W[jq]C[White just got stronger. And guess what? Your stone is weak now. Better save it.]
;B[lq]
;W[jp]C[Now, you see how white basically got an extra move to strengthen his own stones, due to the weakness created in yours? If you hadn't touched him, he would have only gotten one additional stone, rather than two.]))
(;W[bk]
;B[cn]
;W[bm]
;B[dn]
;W[bi]))
(;W[aa]
;B[cg]
;W[bg]
;B[cf]
;W[ce]C[Black has nothing.]))
(;B[kh]C[I would attack (maybe even kill) this white group rather than save two measly stones. This is one way (not necessarily the best) to do it.]))
(;W[ji]C[Better connecting shape.]))
(;B[ej]))[/sgf-full]

Monadology · **#76**

Thanks for the commentary. :salute:

psk31 · **#77**

Yes, thank you for the commentary. I have some general questions but they'll have to come later since I'm on lunch break now.

Maere · **#78**

Quote:

Maere and Rafa: some thoughts on your second game.

Once again, thanks for the detailed review. You bring some positions in a brand new perspective (like your considerations on move 15 or move 31. After you said it, it suddenly becomes obvious :mrgreen:

).

psk31 · **#79**

Once again to thank Dusk Eagle for the comments. I was curious about a couple of things for anyone to answer, instead of H14 at move 14 (the horrible move), what would have been the better alternative if I was trying to protect the upper left? Or should I have gone elsewhere?

I would have never thought of the A19 or T1 (later) in the variations. Are these common? Especially A19 so early in the game.

At move 110 my move to N9, thought I was trying to begin the upper edge of some eye space for the lower right center. What would have been the better move?

So much to learn.

Thanks.

Dusk Eagle · **#80**

Quote:

instead of H14 at move 14 (the horrible move), what would have been the better alternative if I was trying to protect the upper left? Or should I have gone elsewhere?

I'm not exactly sure what you're protecting the upper-left from. It's pretty secure at this point. Black can still invade at the 3-3 point, but it would be very bad for him at this point to do so as the small territory he will get from such an invasion will not be worth the huge influence you get.

One possible variation (probably the simplest):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 3 4 8 O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 2 O 7 . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 0 . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O X . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . O . . 4 . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Your influence here is worth more than the territory black gets, so it's not worth stopping this invasion just yet. But when you do want to stop this invasion, this works:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, instead of H15, I would suggest J14 as the logical local followup, but it might be even better to just tenuki entirely, as this area is not urgent.

psk31 wrote:

I would have never thought of the A19 or T1 (later) in the variations. Are these common? Especially A19 so early in the game.

No, these are horrible moves :razz:

. The reason I placed them there is to show that the move actually played in the game was not actually necessary for defense. Even if the black or white played a total pass move (like A19/T1 are), there was no threat where the defensive move was played, and thus the defensive move was unnecessary.

Quote:

At move 110 my move to N9, thought I was trying to begin the upper edge of some eye space for the lower right center. What would have been the better move?

One of the major problems with N9 is that, when black responds, his N10 stone is effectively strengthened. Since you then proceed to try to save the group above N10, your N9/O10 exchange only made it easier for black to kill you (though to be honest, that group was dead as leaves anyway, but the fact that you tried to save it indicates to me that you didn't realize this).

Instead, I like the move that you played at N4 later. After black responds to that, I might try a move around M8 or so. It's not easy for me to suggest a perfect way to go about living here, but that's not to say it can't be done. Either way though, the game was already over by this point.

September DDK Swiss

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