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Any reason to fill in your own territory?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10363		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Joelnelsonb [ Tue May 27, 2014 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Any reason to fill in your own territory?
My smartgo app does this thing at the end of the game; I'll finish playing and pass but the computer continues to fill in there own space, losing a point each time. It'll put stones in random places like out in the middle of an open space. Is this just the computer being stupid or is there a legit reason to do this?
Author:  Uberdude [ Tue May 27, 2014 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any reason to fill in your own territory?
Joelnelsonb wrote:
My smartgo app does this thing at the end of the game; I'll finish playing and pass but the computer continues to fill in there own space, losing a point each time. It'll put stones in random places like out in the middle of an open space. Is this just the computer being stupid or is there a legit reason to do this?


Just the computer being stupid. There are cases where there is some weakness inside your territory that needs to be defended once the outside liberties get filled at the end of the game, but most bots do the stupid thing you observed as they only try to win, so if they are ahead by quite a few points they fill in their territory. This can be quite a problem when the bot is playing Yoda Norimoto 9 dan professional in a tournament as it's rather rude...
Author:  Solomon [ Tue May 27, 2014 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any reason to fill in your own territory?
Sometimes I'll do it to my opponent if I'm ahead by a significant margin, the aji's run out, and the opponent won't resign.
Author:  Tim C Koppang [ Tue May 27, 2014 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any reason to fill in your own territory?
Araban wrote:
Sometimes I'll do it to my opponent if I'm ahead by a significant margin, the aji's run out, and the opponent won't resign.

Why not just pass in that situation?
Author:  Uberdude [ Tue May 27, 2014 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any reason to fill in your own territory?
Tim C Koppang wrote:
Araban wrote:
Sometimes I'll do it to my opponent if I'm ahead by a significant margin, the aji's run out, and the opponent won't resign.

Why not just pass in that situation?


1. It has more mockery.
2. If they then pass the game enters the scoring phase but it isn't yet finished.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Tue May 27, 2014 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any reason to fill in your own territory?
Joelnelsonb wrote:
My smartgo app does this thing at the end of the game; I'll finish playing and pass but the computer continues to fill in there own space, losing a point each time. It'll put stones in random places like out in the middle of an open space. Is this just the computer being stupid or is there a legit reason to do this?


Make sure that the program is set to play by territory rules. By area rules it loses nothing by filling in its own territory -- unless it kills itself. ;)
Author:  Rowen [ Tue May 27, 2014 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any reason to fill in your own territory?
Bill Spight wrote:
Make sure that the program is set to play by territory rules. By area rules it loses nothing by filling in its own territory -- unless it kills itself. ;)



I had no idea this was an option either. Glad I looked at this post!
Author:  Uberdude [ Tue May 27, 2014 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any reason to fill in your own territory?
Does this option actually exist? Most monte carlo bots only play area rules afaik (it's easier for them to count and establish group status, and doesn't punish their fill in). And as they only try to maximise win percentage not margin would it actually help?
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Tue May 27, 2014 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any reason to fill in your own territory?
From what I've heard from Mike Novack, Monte Carlo bots don't work well at the beginner level, so I don't think SmartGo is using a Monte Carlo algorithm. I also can't find any mention of Monte Carlo on SmartGo's front page or on the Sensei's Library article on the program.
Author:  lemmata [ Tue May 27, 2014 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any reason to fill in your own territory?
Joelnelsonb wrote:
My smartgo app does this thing at the end of the game; I'll finish playing and pass but the computer continues to fill in there own space, losing a point each time. It'll put stones in random places like out in the middle of an open space. Is this just the computer being stupid or is there a legit reason to do this?

I've heard that some go engines try to win by 0.5... I dunno if this is true or not.
Author:  leichtloeslich [ Tue May 27, 2014 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Any reason to fill in your own territory?
Uberdude wrote:
This can be quite a problem when the bot is playing Yoda Norimoto 9 dan professional in a tournament as it's rather rude...


And here I was thinking A.I. research was still millenia away from mastering human emotions!

This may also explain why computer go isn't particularly successful yet: the programmers are wasting their time making anthropomorphic sentient go playing entities, instead of focussing on algorithms to play better go.

In fact, Uberdude's comment (or maybe, Yoda Norimoto's being upset) shows the key problem with calling your opponent's moves "rude".

While there may be cases of actual BM here and there, most of the time you're probably just projecting your own emotional bias onto your opponent.
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