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| Corner advice http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10460 |
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| Author: | Aidoneus [ Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Corner advice |
Playing Many Faces of Go. According to Bruce Wilcox, when a player has extended from both sides of 4-4 it is time to invade at 3-3 before it gets closed off (which I am probably misapplying). When trying this against MFG, it plays an extension to the second line, a sequence not found in its Joseki tutorial. I looked at Eidogo and found three instances, in one game the corner was then ignored by both sides, in one the invader made a one-point extension to the sixth line, and in one the invader played a hane. These possible responses look problematic to me because of the extensions that are already in place (say around the seventh or eighth line). Any thoughts on this corner position: |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
W would like to hane D15. But does it work ? Up to  , we have two urgent vital points: C15 and D15.B wants to hane C15 -- proverb, "hane the head of two (enemy) stones". W also wants to hane D15; the same proverb applies here. Thus in the joseki,  is C15 hane.B missed C15, so W would very much want D15 himself. After  hane D15...Study what happens if  cuts at C15 ? Compare this result to the joseki.Also study what happens if hane E15; again, compare the result versus the joseki.
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| Author: | Aidoneus [ Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Corner advice |
Hi EdLee, thanks again for your input. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi Aidoneus, you're welcome. If you post what you find out about the two variations, we can continue to study them here.
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| Author: | Aidoneus [ Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:37 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: | ||
EdLee wrote: Hi Aidoneus, you're welcome. If you post what you find out about the two variations, we can continue to study them here.You're either a saint (sage) or a masochist.  I gave up on that game but here is what I meant with pre-existing extensions: Can't go past 9? Anyway, if White connects with a, I think that Black kills with b. And switching 8 and 9 looks bad for White, also, to me. If you really want to critique more of my play...you can spoil my good feeling over the game against MFG that I played today after my earlier post in this thread. (With some of my unsophisticated observations! I thought that I would add variations with SmartGo, something I don't know how to do in MFG, but just didn't see the point since the mistakes I saw are obvious): I doubt that I will ever get the chance to buy you a drink, or a beverage of your choice, so I'll raise a toast to you while I watch Fargo tonight! 
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| Author: | EdLee [ Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Aidoneus wrote: Anyway, if White connects with a, I think that Black kills with b. After W (a), what is the exact sequence ? It's important to see for yourself all the way to thevery bitter end, until the local situation is 100% resolved. This way, we also find out if you have missed anything in your reading and follow-ups. For example, right after  connects at (a), what's B's immediate move ?And all the subsequent follow-ups ? This was unclear in your reply. 
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Corner advice |
Aidoneus wrote: According to Bruce Wilcox, when a player has extended from both sides of 4-4 it is time to invade at 3-3 before it gets closed off (which I am probably misapplying). This advice is usually for when they are further extensions than in your later diagrams, i.e. around the side star points. In that case they don't change the local tactical sequences in the corner. In your example the extensions are much closer so the way to play the corner changes a lot (as you see d15 hane doesn't work as black can safely cut). |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Aidoneus wrote: so I'll raise a toast to you while I watch Fargo tonight! Thanks. Is this the new TV series based on the movie ? I heard about it.We can first finish analyzing your corner questions (posts 2 and 6 )... ...As for your game vs. MFG, two moves stood out on first scan:  is absolutely heinous, and can you find the correct local move for  ?
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| Author: | Aidoneus [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:41 am ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: | ||
EdLee wrote: Aidoneus wrote: Anyway, if White connects with a, I think that Black kills with b. After W (a), what is the exact sequence ? It's important to see for yourself all the way to the very bitter end, until the local situation is 100% resolved.This way, we also find out if you have missed anything in your reading and follow-ups. For example, right after connects at (a), what's B's immediate move? And all the subsequent follow-ups ? This was unclear in your reply. After Black at b, the White string has only two liberties to Black's four liberties. White C18 instead of B17, allows Black B17. Aidoneus wrote: According to Bruce Wilcox, when a player has extended from both sides of 4-4 it is time to invade at 3-3 before it gets closed off (which I am probably misapplying). Uberdude wrote: This advice is usually for when they are further extensions than in your later diagrams, i.e. around the side star points. In that case they don't change the local tactical sequences in the corner. In your example the extensions are much closer so the way to play the corner changes a lot (as you see d15 hane doesn't work as black can safely cut). Thanks, Uberdude. This is why I said that I was probably misapplying the rule. I wasn't clear before trying it that those should be WIDE extensions. My invasion quickly turned out bad.
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| Author: | Aidoneus [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Aidoneus wrote: so I'll raise a toast to you while I watch Fargo tonight! Thanks. Is this the new TV series based on the movie ? I heard about it.We can first finish analyzing your corner questions (posts 2 and 6 )... ...As for your game vs. MFG, two moves stood out on first scan: is absolutely heinous, and can you find the correct local move for ? Fargo was a mini-series loosely based on the movie. The final episode was last night on FX. Frankly, I felt that such a farce wore thin before the end. OK, b41 was ridiculous--making an empty triangle, butting heads, etc. I should know better... I don't understand what you mean about b69. Do you mean that White has some devastating response that I overlooked, or do you mean I should have played something else? |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Corner advice |
There's a far better move for  , and consequently  , in your SGF. Can you find them?
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Yes, another local move instead of .Another bad thing about , which you don't understand yet,is it makes a broken shape for you. Which brings us to your extended corner SGF in post 9: your , , and  were all mistakes.(Same issues raised by Dusk Eagle.) This is why we need to see your full sequence, to see all your blind spots in the variations. |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Corner advice |
I think  is correct. There's an alternative but I think this one is better.
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| Author: | Aidoneus [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Corner advice |
Dusk Eagle wrote: There's a far better move for , and consequently , in your SGF. Can you find them?Uh, I guess that there is no hurry to kill the two White stones, so instead of b10:B16 Black could play B14, protecting the stone at C13. Or do you mean a better move for eventual corner shape? |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Corner advice |
Can the white stones live after Black B14? |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Dusk Eagle, my typos. Very difficult to edit and view SGF on an iPhone 4S !!
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Aidoneus wrote: instead of b10:B16 Black could play B14, protecting the stone at C13. Correct. Locally, B14 is the only move for . It's not that B "could," but B must.Given the mistake of at B16, what's the correct move for ?(Same question from posts 11 and 12.) Both Dusk Eagle and I mean the correct local moves. |
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| Author: | Aidoneus [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Aidoneus wrote: instead of b10:B16 Black could play B14, protecting the stone at C13. Correct. Locally, B14 is the only move for . It's not that B "could," but B must.Given the mistake of at B16, what's the correct move for ?(Same question from posts 11 and 12.) Both Dusk Eagle and I mean the correct local moves. Sacrifice the two White stones with w11:B14. Please wait to respond till I post a different sequence for Black 8! |
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| Author: | Aidoneus [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:19 am ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: Corner advice | ||
After looking more at Black 8, maybe the atari at D14 instead of the extension at B15 leads to a dead corner for White: Even if I'm wrong about White being dead, I like that White is locked in. Black IS much better, right? See Jane run. See Dick throw ball. See Jane catch ball. Back to kindergarten for me.
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Corner advice |
Your original black 8 was correct. The one you updated is not as good (though that's a really useful sequence sometimes and is worth remembering). For one, that's not an L-group - if white gets C18 next, that's what we call a large L-group. It's one bigger than a typical L group. Compare the two so you don't get confused in a game . For two, white can play B13 to make even more eyes as well.You almost had it with your original , but then was wrong. If black plays B14 for , can white live?
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