Life In 19x19
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Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10537		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Saproxylic [ Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:59 am ]
Post subject:  Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
First of all I'm really glad that I have discovered Go and his online community, and I'm hoping Go will become a more or less permanent part of my life.

Second, I would like to ask for a bit of advice where to start in my specific situation.

Due to some ongoing health condition in the last 5 or so years I am experiencing some unpleasant decline in my cognitive abilities, but I'm on a bit of a turning point now and would really like to believe the damage does not have to be permanent, it's just the matter of stimulating it the right way and I should be able to get reasonably sharp again sooner or later.

I stumbled upon Go a few months ago on the web, and a few weeks ago convinced a dear friend of mine to give it as a shot. So far we have gone through the basic rules (where you can and can not play the stones and the main objectives) and have been fooling around on 7x7 and 9x9 boards, basically just trying to discover things as we go rather than working through extended theory. The process is sure enjoyable, and we are getting hooked (I guess it's good), but from my side, I do get totally lost a lot, especially on 9x9 (I suppose it sounds funny for most folks here, but 9x9 seems huge for me, so many things to pay attention to) and end up in really weird situations. I have a lot of problems seeing even the most obvious consequences to my moves or planning ahead how a certain area may develop. (For example I recognize living eyes when I see them, but have no idea how to establish them, and often end up with seemingly nicely ''fencing off'' a larger hunk of territory just to have my friend jump in the fenced off bit and establish a living shape in there and me failing to stop him and even losing stones in the process)

I'm not even sure what kind of advice I'm asking for here, but I think I need something to build up basic understanding and the feel of the board first, but I do find most adult aimed learning materials daunting. They just progress too fast, and I seem to lose the trail of thought really really easily, and once I get there I just end up frustrated rather than hooked. (To give an idea about my ability to deal with similar problemsolving, I hit or get close to that frustration wall on some of standard Raven's test problems, and though usually am able to solve most moderately difficult knitting problems (I design my own patterns and designs and combine general methods instead of blind pattern following kind of knitting) I often need to put the work down for a day before I can sit down on a certain problematic bit again with no hard feelings). I also don't do super well on prolonged solely individual studies, the social aspect is highly motivating for me.

I guess starting on something you would offer to a child of roughly 6-8 years of age might actually fit my current abilities to keep focused/follow the trail of thought (I hope it can be improved fast enough, but the current state is as it is, trying to jump higher than my butt isn't super vise usually)

Sorry if this sounded a bit grim and chaotic and I failed to make a point in this, What I wanted to say is that Go seems to be a beautiful and enjoyable way how to tame my mind a bit (as well as a fun bonding activity between me and my friend), and I would be thankful for any guidance!
Author:  Aidoneus [ Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
For a very relaxed pace, you might try the Baduktopia series Level Up! for young children. Some information here http://senseis.xmp.net/?LevelUp and here
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8861

BTW, a search http://www.worldcat.org/search?qt=world ... k+level+up shows that you can get this series through inter-library loans to see if you find them useful. If you do decide to purchase some or all of the series, I have had excellent service from Yellow Mountain Imports (sometimes by way of Amazon.com): http://www.ymimports.com/b/8263160011?f ... in%2Cprice
Author:  Bonobo [ Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
The GoChild Tsumego site might also be something … http://gochild2009.appspot.com/

Greetings, Tom
Author:  Polama [ Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
Inability to reason about the board at all? Or see the simple consequences of a move? Constantly finding yourself in bizarre positions you feel like you've never seen anything like before? Just placing stones wherever because you can't narrow down all these moves?

That's the first few weeks of Go for all of us :D. So whatever temporary cognitive impairment you may be experiencing aside, that's exactly what you should expect as a beginner. It's doubly true when you learn the game with another beginner and don't have anybody to point out the mistakes you make (you were at least bright enough to start on a small board, I jumped right into 19x19 with another beginner. What a mess those games were :lol:).

It's the only downside of Go, that you have to get across this chasm of the game making no sense. I found it largely came down to learning what sorts of moves are usual, and learning a number of very simple patterns that come up again and again. That lets you start picking out just a couple possibilities for the next move and comparing them. And suddenly the depth of Go opens up before you.

Aidoneus' suggestion is a good one, I've heard good things about that series being a nice introduction to the game. You mentioned having to put aside knitting for a day when you hit a problem, you could download software that will let you record a game as you play it. Then you could look at a game the next day and see where you went wrong with a fresh perspective.

I'd also suggest if you don't have any stronger players around to check out the Go Teaching Ladder. People post games they play, and others give them pointers. Here's the small board section: https://gtl.xmp.net/reviews/of_smallboards. If you look at games played by 20-30kyu's, you can see the mistakes people play at your level. If you look at 10-20kyu, you can see what somewhat stronger players play like, and compare it with your own games. Are there shapes they make more often? Shapes they don't make?

Anyways, a warm welcome to Go. You'll have to let us know if you find it helps.
Author:  Uberdude [ Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
Nice beginner tutorial: http://playgo.to/iwtg/en/

Regarding cognitive abilities and Go: there is a guy on KGS who was about 1 dan before he had a traumatic brain injury (from some sport collision iirc) and he dropped down to about 10 kyu. He's now back to around 4 kyu or so. I don't know if he thinks the Go helped him recover or just measures his brain's ability, but I found his case interesting.
Author:  happysocks [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
Solving go problems (apart from just being fun) are a great way to improve ones understanding of the game and should be particularly helpful to 9x9 play, World Baduk has an outstanding collection of problems ranging from beginner level all the way up to dan ranks, free! You can play go with people all over the world there too: http://www.wbaduk.com
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
Welcome to go! :)

Even if your cognitive deficits are permanent, that does not mean that you cannot learn and enjoy the game at a reasonable and satisfying level. (OC, the game humbles us all. :) )

I think that the usual advice is good. Play a lot. :)
Author:  Saproxylic [ Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
Thank you all for replies, I have been slowly browsing through the resources, and spent a couple of nights on them, and there is a bit of progress, I think,so it's going well.

Polama wrote:
Inability to reason about the board at all? Or see the simple consequences of a move? Constantly finding yourself in bizarre positions you feel like you've never seen anything like before? Just placing stones wherever because you can't narrow down all these moves?

That's the first few weeks of Go for all of us :D. So whatever temporary cognitive impairment you may be experiencing aside, that's exactly what you should expect as a beginner. It's doubly true when you learn the game with another beginner and don't have anybody to point out the mistakes you make (you were at least bright enough to start on a small board, I jumped right into 19x19 with another beginner. What a mess those games were :lol:).



You are right, I suppose with a game this complex it's totally normal and it was kinda what I expected, though it's a tad frustrating realizing that the other person just simply progresses faster (but, well, what did I expect picking a talented programmer with a knack on logic based problemsolving in general as my partner, Go just comes naturally to him)

Also, I think my past as a keen Settelers of Catan player is coming back and biting my butt in a few instances, I'm slowly learning that Go is played a lot more on the board and a lot less in the air between players, and building the ability to distance myself from the personality of the opponent and paying attention to the stones he plays instead :)
Author:  Uberdude [ Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
Saproxylic wrote:
a keen Settelers of Catan player


You might like the last picture here. :)
viewtopic.php?p=140240#p140240
Author:  Boidhre [ Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
What I found most useful in this context was on days when my concentration was very poor (I've bipolar and other thing that cause fatigue and concentration issues, different but related issues I imagine) was that the primary difficulty was in focusing for very long. By picking different levels of go problems I could find logic puzzles that were within my reach on that particular day and keep the mind working. Even very simple problems if you try to solve them in your mind rather than by staring at the problem board as an aid were especially useful I think, especially mini problems on 4x4 or similar boards.


Playing games when concentration was very poor was very frustrating though. I found just trying to completely solve simpler problems (i.e. work the result from all starting positions) to be more rewarding. I've no idea if it helps though, but mental exercise can't be a bad idea.
Author:  Xiaoding [ Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
Define "concentration". What is it you are doing, that you call concentration? I find it to be an rather amorphous term. :study:
Author:  Saproxylic [ Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
Hello, wanted to update a little bit and ask for a tad more advice.

Sadly I have lost any possibility to play with the friend I started to play with, which is sad, and so far have failed to convince anyone else to give Go a shot, it made me lose my motivation a fair bit, but I still end up trying to do a bit a few times a week.
Sadly my only companions so far are Gochild app and Igowin on 9x9 and I still feel really lost. I mean I start to see patterns in ways I screw up, I still keep screwing up in somewhat similar ways over and over again. I get a decent game once in a while, but I can't shake off the feeling it's more the intentional derp of Igowin than me actually doing something right.

I wish there was some way of obtaining a bit more guidance or some pointers while I play, something along ''what are you planning to do with that group'' or ''Are you sure this is the corner you have to be worrying about'' or ''check the situation on that one, you might want to do something about it'' but that sadly only comes from flesh and blood beings. I kinda have no idea how to take iniciative and keep direction in a game instead of just trying to somehow not panic about white stones being everywhere.
Author:  xed_over [ Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
There are a number of online Go servers where you can play games, teaching games, and get instant feedback, and its almost as good as playing someone in person.

My personal recommendation would be for KGS. OGS is another popular server. And there are many others, but usually more for serious play and less personal interaction, and instruction.
Author:  Bonobo [ Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
Saproxylic, if you want we can play a slow correspondence game on OGS — my username there is “trohde” :-)

I am by no means a strong player, though; currently oscillating between 13k and 11k, but we can chat there about our game while we’re playing, if we like. It’s also possible to post move variations in the chat so as to show other options. So, IF you like, just register there and send me a “friend” request, we can negotiate game options there.

Cordially, Tom
Author:  Elom [ Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
Due to time constraints and no physical keyboard, I am a bit brief :cool: .

Quote:
First of all I'm really glad that I have discovered Go and his online community, and I'm hoping Go will become a more or less permanent part of my life.

Second, I would like to ask for a bit of advice where to start in my specific situation.

Due to some ongoing health condition in the last 5 or so years I am experiencing some unpleasant decline in my cognitive abilities, but I'm on a bit of a turning point now and would really like to believe the damage does not have to be permanent, it's just the matter of stimulating it the right way and I should be able to get reasonably sharp again sooner or later.


You're probably right ;-)

Quote:
I stumbled upon Go a few months ago on the web, and a few weeks ago convinced a dear friend of mine to give it as a shot. So far we have gone through the basic rules (where you can and can not play the stones and the main objectives) and have been fooling around on 7x7 and 9x9 boards, basically just trying to discover things as we go rather than working through extended theory. The process is sure enjoyable, and we are getting hooked (I guess it's good)


:)

Quote:
but from my side, I do get totally lost a lot, especially on 9x9 (I suppose it sounds funny for most folks here, but 9x9 seems huge for me, so many things to pay attention to) and end up in really weird situations.


I've been playing for 3 years, and 9x9 is still too big for me :D

Quote:
I have a lot of problems seeing even the most obvious consequences to my moves or planning ahead how a certain area may develop.


Same here.

Quote:
(For example I recognize living eyes when I see them, but have no idea how to establish them, and often end up with seemingly nicely ''fencing off'' a larger hunk of territory just to have my friend jump in the fenced off bit and establish a living shape in there and me failing to stop him and even losing stones in the process)


Maybe you could try recording a few games and posting them here, I'm sure one of our friendly guys here would be more than happy to help! ;-) more importantly for this question, we would better understand your thinking if you add some notes, and we can answer the greater question.

Also, some people are slightly embarassed to show stronger players their games, but I can assure that your skill compared to mine is infinitely greater than my skill compared to a pro.

BTW, you're problem is not isolated, here is something similar

http://gobase.org/studying/articles/mio ... u/?issue=1

Quote:
I'm not even sure what kind of advice I'm asking for here, but I think I need something to build up basic understanding and the feel of the board first, but I do find most adult aimed learning materials daunting. They just progress too fast, and I seem to lose the trail of thought really really easily, and once I get there I just end up frustrated rather than hooked. (To give an idea about my ability to deal with similar problemsolving, I hit or get close to that frustration wall on some of standard Raven's test problems, and though usually am able to solve most moderately difficult knitting problems (I design my own patterns and designs and combine general methods instead of blind pattern following kind of knitting) I often need to put the work down for a day before I can sit down on a certain problematic bit again with no hard feelings). I also don't do super well on prolonged solely individual studies, the social aspect is highly motivating for me.

I guess starting on something you would offer to a child of roughly 6-8 years of age might actually fit my current abilities to keep focused/follow the trail of thought (I hope it can be improved fast enough, but the current state is as it is, trying to jump higher than my butt isn't super vise usually)

Sorry if this sounded a bit grim and chaotic and I failed to make a point in this, What I wanted to say is that Go seems to be a beautiful and enjoyable way how to tame my mind a bit (as well as a fun bonding activity between me and my friend), and I would be thankful for any guidance!


Good luck! And I wish you enrichment of your life through Baduk!
Author:  Saproxylic [ Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
Bonobo wrote:
Saproxylic, if you want we can play a slow correspondence game on OGS — my username there is “trohde” :-)

I am by no means a strong player, though; currently oscillating between 13k and 11k, but we can chat there about our game while we’re playing, if we like. It’s also possible to post move variations in the chat so as to show other options. So, IF you like, just register there and send me a “friend” request, we can negotiate game options there.

Cordially, Tom


Thanks for the offer, I might actually get to that somewhen in early/mid january, once I'm done with most study assignments. I bet it would be nice to get the chance to ask some questions.

I actually found out that an aquiaintance of mine also is learning to play and we had three games on 9x9, and on the first one I lost with only 1 point difference (the other 2 were brutal and I think he grew a bit tired of me making silly mistakes) but that was a nice fresh feeling. He also told me about a cafe where Go players meet on saturday mornings, the only problem being them mostly being single digit kyu and above, but there is something to look forward :D
Author:  PeterN [ Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Using Go to recover cognitive abilities
Brutal games are pretty much the norm with huge swings to start with, so try not to get put off by that if you can. As you get more used to it you'll probably either settle towards less fighty style or embrace those huge swings.

I will somewhat belatedly second xed's recommendation of KGS, especially the Beginner's Room, there's usually someone there who's willing to help people out.

And most importantly of all, good luck, welcome to go, and enjoy! :) (even if that comment is also late :lol:)

PeterN
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