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Counting Liberties
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10793		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  charlesqh [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:08 am ]
Post subject:  Counting Liberties
Hi folks,

I'm a beginner and I got lost in counting the settled and unsettled territory. I've attached a diagram of the marked "x" of points in the territory. My questions.

1.when counting the settled points in the territory the "x" lines are not included - why?
2.why the moyo(counting of territory) did not make out to include the area A-B-C instead it got cut out in the corner?
3.I read it somewhere in this website that the counting of points of the same line group of stones, say, from stone A closes to it is 1 point, next is 1/2 and the last to be counted is 1/4 point. The fourth stone is considered "pointless" as it lack the "power of strength" along the line/connection. Is that for computer programming purposes or that is a conventional rule in GO that after the 4th position of the same line the stone is not considered as a settled point of territory?

So, when I played in a game I got lost in counting (position analysis)of whether or not those are considered points or that I'm enclosing game aimlessly? Most of the time!

I could not find books teaching these very basic except books on Position Analysis. Any recommendation?

Thanks a lot.

Attachments:
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Author:  Uberdude [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Counting Liberties
It sounds like you are a beginner who is unsure of how to count territory at the end of the game. That diagram is about estimating what the likely territory will be before the game is finished based on expected good play from both sides, which is much more difficult. I would recommend first understanding how to count a finished game in which the territories have all been clearly walled off. There are numerous books and other resources on this, for example:
http://www.playgo.to/iwtg/en/count.html

But to actually answer your questions:
1: Because it is expected that by the time the position is completed into well defined territories for counting at the end of the game those x points will be the wall of the territories with stones on them, and thus not empty points of territory.
2. Hand-waving guesswork. That 24 points in the centre is not territory. It might be in the future. I expect the text that accompanied the diagram said something like "If white can convert his moyo and centre potential into the marked area of 24 points of territory then it is a close game". Big If. This is not scoring/counting a finished game.
3. This is probably an example of calculating the "miai" value of moves. There is no rule like "after the 4th position of the same line the stone is not considered as a settled point of territory?". When you count at the end of the game you either have 1 point or 0 points. There are no fractions of points at the end of the game. Where the fractions come from is if you need to play 2 moves to gain 1 point, then we can say, on average, that each of those 2 moves gained half a point. Calculating miai values is not so hard if you have a mathematical mind, but I would leave it for later.
Author:  CnP [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Counting Liberties
I don't want to overstep my experience here but Positional Judgement is (in part) about putting values on that sort of diagram, e.g. a book I have, is: http://senseis.xmp.net/?PositionalJudgmentHighSpeedGameAnalysis though I would definately not recommend it to a beginner. Robert Jasiek has also written one http://senseis.xmp.net/?PositionalJudgement1 but I don't own it.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Counting Liberties
charlesqh wrote:
I'm a beginner and I got lost in counting the settled and unsettled territory.


(So your thread title is wrong. It should be "assessing territory".)

As a beginner, count those intersections that the opponent cannot take away any more. An intersection with a dead opposing stone on counts 2 points. Do not forget the prisoners.

Quote:
I've attached a diagram of the marked "x" of points in the territory.


The diagram looks like using methods of Valery Shikshin in his book The Theory And Practice Of Analysis. In order to understand why such diagrams have many severe and big mistakes, read my review on that book:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?TheTheoryAndPra ... bertJasiek

The consequence is that you should discard the X markings on your diagram! They are wrong!

Quote:
1.when counting the settled points in the territory the "x" lines are not included - why?
2.why the moyo(counting of territory) did not make out to include the area A-B-C instead it got cut out in the corner?


Read my review.

Quote:
3.I read it somewhere in this website that the counting of points of the same line group of stones, say, from stone A closes to it is 1 point, next is 1/2 and the last to be counted is 1/4 point. The fourth stone is considered "pointless" as it lack the "power of strength" along the line/connection.


Such a method is too complicated. Disregard it.

Quote:
So, when I played in a game I got lost in counting (position analysis)of whether or not those are considered points or that I'm enclosing game aimlessly? Most of the time!


See above.

Quote:
I could not find books teaching these very basic except books on Position Analysis. Any recommendation?


Exactly the books on positional analysis are for explaining these "counting" basics! However, 1) as a beginner you can postpone them as long as you do pretty well with my advice above and 2) The Theory And Practice Of Analysis and The Art of Positional Analysis are NOT such books.

Concerning (1) and the white moyo on the right side: count 20. Be aware that White has the potential for additional territory from the moyo. As a beginner(!) (and only as a beginner), simply count ">20" (meaning "bigger than 20") for the whole white moyo. OTOH, if you really want to know why to in/exclude intersections marked with X, you would already need to read the books on positional judgement above beginner level if earlier explanations on L19 and this page do not tell you enough for your taste:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?CurrentTerritory
Author:  charlesqh [ Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Counting Liberties
Thanks folks for your help.
Author:  charlesqh [ Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Counting Liberties
Hi Robert Jasiek - where in Asia are your books available from online store? Thanks
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