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If you have secured all four corners then you have lost?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10831		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Joelnelsonb [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:16 am ]
Post subject:  If you have secured all four corners then you have lost?
I saw this proverb on wikipedia but could'nt find an explanation anywhere including sensei's library. Anyone care to elaborate? I think the point is that if you spent enough moves to have all four corners then your opponent must have been busy with something more productive.
Author:  Abyssinica [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: If you have secured all four corners then you have lost?
If white has all 4 corners: You have lost
If black has all 4 corners: You have lost
Author:  Polama [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: If you have secured all four corners then you have lost?
An important strategy is sealing opponent groups into the corner. Even if they make a lot of territory, if you've sealed them in thickly it's like their group isn't there, while you've got a group radiating influence into the board. Do that 4 times? It's going to be hard for your opponent do anything but get harassed in the middle.

On the other hand, stealing a corner is also an important strategy. The 3-3 invasion of 4-4 becomes important when the area outside the 4-4 is relatively settled and the thickness won't be worth as much. Additionally, a stronger player can usually make territory in a corner while simultaneously leaving bad aji in the opponent's surrounding stones. If one player has all 4 corners, it's often the case they got that territory for less than fair compensation.

Between the "four corners wins/four corners loses" proverbs, I'd say the underlying principals are: "Don't get sealed in, but don't give up corners lightly either"
Author:  Uberdude [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: If you have secured all four corners then you have lost?
Forget about this supposed proverb, it's crap. What Abyssinica said is a tongue in cheek proverb for black in handicap games which is basically saying white is stronger than you and can beat you by playing for the corners or centre.

Perhaps the only useful thing you can take from this is that go is about balance and it might be if you have all four corners your opponent has a nice centre. However the centre is harder to enclose and from the other perspective your opponent might be unbalanced in going too much for the centre and putting all his eggs in one (easier to break) basket. Saying "black has all 4 corners and it's hard to see how white can get enough territory to win" is a perfectly plausible comment on a game. For example this one Bill likes to use from Fujisawa Shuko to illustrate why this common 3-4 joseki is good for black locally (note that black does have access to the centre here so it's not easy for white to make centre territory, also white has invasion points in his shape):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White has already lost, black has all 4 corners and white can't make enough territory.
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . O . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , O . O . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . O . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . O . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


A while ago I analysed my OGS games (which I won a large percentage of) to see how many corners I had. It was noticeable that I usually had more than my opponent, but this was far less pronounced in the games I lost. As I believe a Chinese proverb says: corner is gold, side is silver, centre is grass. (And grass is for cows)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: If you have secured all four corners then you have lost?
I have always regarded this so-called proverb as a joke. Literally. ;)

There are many go proverbs. When I was in Japan I learned the opposite proverb, which is that if your opponent has all four corners you have lost. As with nearly all go proverbs, there are exceptions.

Later, when I had returned to the US, I heard the variant where if Black has all four corners, he has lost. That was obviously a joke, related to handicap games, as Abyssinica and Uberdude indicate. It has a point, though, which is that even if you get a handicap, simply making territory is not likely to work. Much later I heard this variant, which is even more of a joke and has no point at all.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: If you have secured all four corners then you have lost?
Uberdude wrote:
As I believe a Chinese proverb says: corner is gold, side is silver, centre is grass. (And grass is for cows)


Uberdude's Mu?

Is there territory in the centre?

Mu.

:mrgreen:
Author:  CnP [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: If you have secured all four corners then you have lost?
Bill Spight wrote:
I have always regarded this so-called proverb as a joke. Literally. ;)

There are many go proverbs. When I was in Japan I learned the opposite proverb, which is that if your opponent has all four corners you have lost. As with nearly all go proverbs, there are exceptions.

Later, when I had returned to the US, I heard the variant where if Black has all four corners, he has lost. That was obviously a joke, related to handicap games, as Abyssinica and Uberdude indicate. It has a point, though, which is that even if you get a handicap, simply making territory is not likely to work. Much later I heard this variant, which is even more of a joke and has no point at all.


In the Nihon Ki-in Handbook of Proverbs (vol 1) - (English version) it says "By the way, after Takemiya started winning consistently with this strategy, some people started saying 'If you take four corners, resign,' but this is not sound advice for any but the best."

edit: it's on page 153, in the section dealing with the last proverb, "If you lose four corners, resign".
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