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x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11097		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  x0tek [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:46 am ]
Post subject:  x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
Digital cleaning.
Author:  Krama [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
I hate to break it to you, unless you are a kid with a professional to train you 8 hours a day, you can't make it to top.

Take some amateurs from europe who have been playing since they were like 8 but without help from professionals and the competetive scene they only reached so far. (they are still way above my level but simple not even close to being the best).

If you have a lot of money and you don't have to work a day in your life then I guess with help from pros and 8-10 hours a day of studying you could maybe reach high dan levels, if you really have talent then perhaps even an european pro.

Good luck with your journey :)
Author:  Bonobo [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
Welcome, x0tek :-)

Lacking time, I’ll keep out of the discussion, but want to emphasise this:
x0tek wrote:
[..] it can be a game I spend my life exploring. [..]
Yes!

I just want to mention that — IMHO — over-focusing on “becoming pro” or “becoming Dan” is a common beginner’s sickness, as is obsession with rank … and I believe that as soon as this has been left behind (and thus some humility is achieved) the real fun (and progress) begins.

Wishing you a good, life-long journey with Go. It may not always be a joyride but it won’t ever get boring.

Cordially, Tom
Author:  DrStraw [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
x0tek wrote:
I've played several games at the uppermost level (I've been the world's best at two, and am the second-best in my current game [on my way to the top! we travel to China in the Spring to compete for the title]).


You don't say what these games are. I'm curious, because the effort to become the world's best in even one game would appear to be tremendous if there are more than a handful of players. To achieve that in two games seems exceptional.
Author:  RBerenguel [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
DrStraw wrote:
x0tek wrote:
I've played several games at the uppermost level (I've been the world's best at two, and am the second-best in my current game [on my way to the top! we travel to China in the Spring to compete for the title]).


You don't say what these games are. I'm curious, because the effort to become the world's best in even one game would appear to be tremendous if there are more than a handful of players. To achieve that in two games seems exceptional.


I did some minor stalking with his name and/or handle, but couldn't really figure out in which game he was #1. As was (somewhat) to be expected they seem to be computer games.

Edit: I subscribe to Krama's and Bonobo's sentiments. Enjoy the journey, but don't expect to get to the top unless you get incredibly strong and constant coaching
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
I believe in the existence of savons and maybe you share their talent. Otherwise, you need a minimum of 30,000 hours to possibly become world's number one and chances are smaller than 1:100,000 even then. To achieve your goal nevertheless, take every teacher you can find, read all available books, play much, review your own games and psychology and be aware that Go is one of the strategically deepest existing games. Tactically, it might be comparable to chess. So if your previous top games are similarly tactically deep and you can adopt tactical thinking quickly to go, you might have a slightly better chance. Your first aim can be 1 dan within 6 months, something that only every 10,000th player achieves. However, if you do not make it 10 kyu within 2 months, forget it and readjust your goals.
Author:  shapenaji [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
Good luck, you're going to need it.

I want to see a western-origin #1, but I put the over-under at 20 years.
Author:  x0tek [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
Digital cleaning.
Author:  RBerenguel [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
Well, Robert is a very prolific writer with many books, so I'm sure he can recommend a lot of their own (I can vouch for the 3 of them I own: they are good.) Probably during your first few weeks, just goofing around some games (so as to lose quite a few) won't hurt, since it will get you to grips with the basic "mechanics" of go much faster than reading about them. Then, practicing tsumego (local tactics, so to say) should become second-nature. It essentially shouldn't stop ever, as long as you aim to improve. As for what strategy focused books would be best, it's hard to tell and there are many schools of thought, so I'd rather leave it for other people to chime in ;)
Author:  Bonobo [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
Oooooooh, “Age of Mythology” … I absolutely LOVED that game! Last time I played it must be over ten years ago, though … and the current re-issue didn’t convince me to purchase it.

<edit>

And yes, Robert Jasiek’s books. Warmly recommended reading. “First Fundamentals” is one of my favourites, but I also like the others I’ve been reading in.

</edit>
Author:  DrStraw [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
If you are really serious about getting good I would not recommend reading anything for the first two months. Just play as much as you can every day and make sure you play quick games. At eight hours a day you should be able to get through 20 quick games easily. Expect to lose most of them at first. You will be exposed to so many positions by doing that that after those two months you will be ready to start reading and be able to say "Oh, I remember that from one of my games. That's what I should have done!". At that point you can start to ask what books to read and switch to more study than play.
Author:  jeromie [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
Welcome! I look forward to hearing about your journey through the game of Go.

I'm relatively weak, so take all of my advice with a grain of salt.

Skip any books that just cover the basic rules of the game. You can find all of that information online.

The first two books I purchased were Learn to Play Go Volume II: The Way of the Moving Horse by Janice Kim and Opening Theory Made Easy by Otake Hideo. The former gives a good overview of strategy in various parts of the game and the latter demystifies the first moves of the game. I haven't read enough books to guarantee that those are the absolute best choices for a beginner, but I didn't regret either purchase.

You will, at some point, want to read Tesuji by James Davies and Attack and Defense by Ishida Akira and James Davies. Both can wait until you're a bit stronger, though.

The Graded Go Problems for Beginners series is a good source of level-appropriate go problems. You can also find a lot of problems online (e.g. go problems.com), but the quality is not as consistent. If you have an iDevice, this series (and many other books!) are available through the SmartGo app. In fact, you could build up an entire library in that app, and individual book prices are often less expensive than buying a paper copy.

Resist the temptation to practice against a computer. There are strong computer programs these days, but if you reduce their level to something you'd have a chance of beating as a beginner they will play oddly and you will pick up bad habits. Play a lot of games against people! For online play, I would start playing on KGS (gokgs.com). There's an open debate as to which go server is the best, but KGS undoubtedly has more English language kibitz than the other servers and it's the easiest place to find a stronger player willing to play a teaching game.

If you're serious about aspiring to pro level, you'll probably want lessons at some point. There are a number of English language online go schools and (European) professionals who offer private lessons. I don't have direct experience with any of them, so I'll let someone else speak to those.

Good luck! Consider keeping a study journal of your progress here at L19; I'd love to keep tabs on how you're doing.
Author:  Krama [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
You might be confused by something.

You see I am a gamer myself and in the new MOBA genre games we also see players who are really strong and are actually professional palyers (they earn hundreds of thousands $$ a year). However these games as complex as they are, are actually really easy to master.

For a game like League of Legends for example I had a friend who played the game for a year and a half and was in diamond 1 awaiting to get into highest level of play, he was in challenger with 5v5 so it took him less than 2 years to reach almost top level.

I can tell you right away that 2 years is not enough to even reach low dan levels (unless if you are a talented 8 years old asian with pro help).

What you will see is the following.

You will watch lectures, learn new stuff and tell yourself that the game is fun and that you have so much to learn. You will watch your rank go up and then it will jump up quickly if you are serious about the game. Once you reach around 10 kyu you will see your first barrier, but with a month or two you can break it and go on to mid kyu level (~4 kyu). That is where I am "stuck", and this is a common barrier. Now here things will start to get a little bit complicated and you will start to lose hope of reaching pro :D

I know that this what I am saying is kinda pessimistic but I wish someone told me this when I started studying go, cause then I wouldn't have unrealistic goals and I wouldn't be frustrated for not improving in linear fashion.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
x0tek wrote:
do you have any books you would recommend, or resources as to where I could look for a coach?


viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11101
Author:  paK0 [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
I think dan in one year has been done before, but a lot of players have that goal and reaching it seems to be more of an exception than a rule.

Still, good luck, maybe you are the exception^^.
Author:  Uberdude [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
Krama wrote:
I can tell you right away that 2 years is not enough to even reach low dan levels (unless if you are a talented 8 years old asian with pro help).


Whilst x0tek's chances of become world #1 are practically nil (Welcome! ;-) ), this is unduly pessimistic. There are plenty of Western teenagers* who made 1 dan in a year mostly by playing on KGS (I was 1d in a year and a few months, started at 19). I know of some making 1d in 3 months.

*It's usually smart school/university students in my experience, rather than adults, probably a combination of being faster learners and having more free time at that stage of life.
Author:  x0tek [ Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
Cheers, and I wish you all happy holidays through this upcoming winter! See you soon. :tmbup:
Author:  Krama [ Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
Uberdude wrote:
Krama wrote:
I can tell you right away that 2 years is not enough to even reach low dan levels (unless if you are a talented 8 years old asian with pro help).


Whilst x0tek's chances of become world #1 are practically nil (Welcome! ;-) ), this is unduly pessimistic. There are plenty of Western teenagers* who made 1 dan in a year mostly by playing on KGS (I was 1d in a year and a few months, started at 19). I know of some making 1d in 3 months.

*It's usually smart school/university students in my experience, rather than adults, probably a combination of being faster learners and having more free time at that stage of life.


You must be a go talent then :D

But when i said lower dan levels I was thinking about EGF levels and not specifically 1d.

1d KGS is 2 stones weaker than a true 1 dan EGF, and I was talking about 1-3 which is low dan, 4-5 being mid dan and 6-7 being high dans. (3 could also be a mid dan)

So in KGS terms I was looking for a 4-5 dan player which I don't think can be reached in 1 year (not talking about asian kids).
Author:  Uberdude [ Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
Ok so KGS 4-5 dan in a year is indeed a lot harder but you are rather strange to call that low dan. KGS 1d is not two stones weaker than EGF 1d. I know several EGF 1d who are also KGS 1d. And I'm EGF 4d and KGS 3d at blitz and probably 4d if serious which I haven't done for a while.
Author:  Abyssinica [ Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: x0tek: Obligatory Introduction Thread
Kgs 1d is kgs 1d.
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