Life In 19x19 :: Two space high pincer for approaching star point

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Author: gostudent [ Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:24 pm ]

Post subject: Two space high pincer for approaching star point

The following is one joseki on two space high pincer from Kogo's joseki dictionary.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Two space high pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . 1 . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 2 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

One question I have is whether B8 is too wide or not -- it seems to give an easy invasion point for white at a.

Another question I have is that, in real game, more than one white player did this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W What should black do? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . d . . 2 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

In the joseki, white plays at a first. Of course, as black, I can play at b, and when white jumps out at a, I can play at c, reverting back to the joseki sequence. My question is: is there a better move for black? I've tried to play at d, but it didn't end up favorable to black.

Author: EdLee [ Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:43 pm ]

Post subject:

gostudent wrote:

whether B8 is too wide or not

Hi GoStudent,

Meta-discussion: "B8" is ambiguous because it could mean :b8:

, which is want you meant, or a coordinate, like A8, C8, D8, etc.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . o . . o . B . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . o X . X o o . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This

is a joseki shape.
This is only a moyo; it's not solid territory yet.
Of course, there are still local points of interest for White --
a few shown above -- depending on the global situation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . e d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

gostudent wrote:

when white jumps out at a, I can play at c, reverting back to the joseki sequence. My question is: is there a better move for black?

After the

exchange, your corner is now stronger,
so you can consider to jump farther than the joseki (c),
to (d) or (e) -- so W's exchange :w3:

has helped you.
This is why W wants to jump out to :w5:

first.

Author: Bill Spight [ Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:04 am ]

Post subject: Re: Two space high pincer for approaching star point

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Two space extension $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 2 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

There may be times when the two space extension for :b8:

will be appropriate.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Boshi $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 2 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

There may be times when the boshi for :b4:

will be appropriate.

Author: Uberdude [ Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:34 am ]

Post subject: Re: Two space high pincer for approaching star point

gostudent wrote:

The following is one joseki on two space high pincer from Kogo's joseki dictionary.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Two space high pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . 1 . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 2 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

One question I have is whether B8 is too wide or not -- it seems to give an easy invasion point for white at a.

Yes there is an invasion point at a, but 8 may also make a good relationship with the lower left corner, for example if there is a black 4-4 stone there then 8 is a good extension from it which means white cannot make a comfortable inside approach. If black played at b instead of the marked stone then white's approach of 1 would have more room. If the lower left on the other hand was a strong white group, then the tighter extension Bill mentioned could make more sense. Don't just think of the relationship of your stones in the joseki, look at how they relate to your (and your opponent's) stones on the rest of the board too.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White cramped $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . O . . $$ | . . X . . O . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . X , . $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . $$ | . . B , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . 4 . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ +----------------------[/go]

gostudent wrote:

Another question I have is that, in real game, more than one white player did this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W What should black do? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . d . . 2 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

What happened which wasn't favourable? Maybe the mistake wasn't d but later. One simple, though 4 has a crude feeling, idea is to build a wall like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Simple wall $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 1 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . 6 8 0 2 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Black would prefer to have this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Hoped for wall $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . 4 6 8 2 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

But if white hanes black can now push in, if white answers then if the ladder is good for black it's great for him. if not it's still ok as can squeeze the outside but there are 2 cuts afterwards.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 1 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . 4 5 . 2 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

But maybe white resists with this atari which gives black an ugly empty triangle and the pincer gets separated, but black gobbles up 3. This exchange is harder to judge and is why black might want to play the crude push I showed first to make sure it doesn't happen.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 1 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X 8 4 5 . 2 , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

White could also play 9 at 10 as black can no longer ladder, so this would probably happen. White might then cut at a, or play elsewhere.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O 2 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O 1 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X O 4 X , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O 3 5 a . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Author:	gostudent [ Tue Apr 28, 2015 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Two space high pincer for approaching star point
Thank you for all your responses! In the actual game, my opponent did not choose the variation as Uberdude has worked out in great details (thanks!) My opponent got sente, though, and he immediately reduced the influence of my wall. So this is really a problem of wrong direction of play -- I chose a wall in the wrong direction.

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