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beginner getting destroyed
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1229		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  TominNJ [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  beginner getting destroyed
Corrected post re: where I play.

I'm trying to learn and just getting whipped every game. Typical scores 200 to 40.

My games are all pretty much the same. My opponent chases me around the board trying to capture huge blocks of my stones and I spend all my time trying to stop him.

Is this the normal learning curve? Any suggestions on how to improve my survival skills?

I play on Yahoo and Panda.net.

Thanks for any help you can offer.
Author:  Harleqin [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
Play on smaller boards.
Author:  Li Kao [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
And play on KGS. Their ranking system even works for beginners. Just use automatch and set your rank to 30k.
And smaller boards can be useful too.I played a lot of games vs igowin to get rid of the totally stupid tactical mistakes.
Author:  Chew Terr [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
Also on KGS, there is a 'beginner's room', where you can play with folks that are likely to be closer to your level. Also, if you see me on KGS, send me a message and mention the forum, and I would be happy to give you a friendly teaching game.
Author:  daal [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
Chances are that on Panda and Yahoo you are not getting a chance to play against anyone near your strength. On both of these servers, at the lower levels, there are many sandbaggers (people pretending to be weaker than they are, so that they can enjoy a win more often). Give KGS a try.
Author:  Magicwand [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
TominNJ wrote:
Corrected post re: where I play.

I'm trying to learn and just getting whipped every game. Typical scores 200 to 40.

My games are all pretty much the same. My opponent chases me around the board trying to capture huge blocks of my stones and I spend all my time trying to stop him.

Is this the normal learning curve? Any suggestions on how to improve my survival skills?

I play on Yahoo and Panda.net.

Thanks for any help you can offer.


stronger player will not attack you if your defense is solid.
but if you give him too much influence and your weak group is in danger they will attack.

survival skill begins before your group gets weak.
it is not skill of finding tesujies. (although it helps)
it is also about correct timing of your attack.
it is also about getting good shape.
it is also about understanding the power of influence.
it is also about reading weak points (yours and opponent's)

basically it is about reading which equals the strength.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
We all got clobbered when we were first learning.

Post a game of yours in the 'game analysis' forum. You will get lots of useful advice.
Author:  xed_over [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
There's nothing wrong with the servers he plays on or the size of the board.

However, the suggestions given about more beginner friendly servers and smaller boards can be helpful.

TominNJ wrote:
Is this the normal learning curve? Any suggestions on how to improve my survival skills?

Yes, this is normal. But its difficult to give specific advice without an example of your play.

Learn to keep your stones working together, connected. Don't try so hard to capture your opponent's stones, because that usually just leaves your groups weaker and more vulnerable to attack -- which may be why you keep getting chased all around the board.

Try to pay attention to making uncapturable groups. Soon, you will learn to make those groups larger and larger, since the player with the largest uncapturable groups wins the game. And often you may notice that the winner also has fewer groups (all connected to each other across the board)

Pay attention to creating weak groups. Try to make solid connections instead. Soon you'll learn to both attack your opponent while defending your own position at the same time -- with one move. And look for more multi-purpose moves like that. Moves that can attack in several directions at once.

That's some very general advice. Hope it helps.
Author:  Redbeard [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
The best strategy advice I can give beginners is the mantra "Corner, Side, Middle". A lot of beginners jump into the middle of the board without making a sold base. Start your game in the corners of the board and then expand to the sides on the third and fourth lines from the edge. Only move higher (lines 5 and up) when you have a solid territory base to work from.

I also agree with the folks who suggest you move to KGS. Once there you will be able to save your games and post them in our 'game analysis' forum. That way we will be able to give you more concrete advice.

Until then, repeat after me: "Corner, Side, Middle...Corner, Side, Middle" :D
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
TominNJ wrote:
I'm trying to learn and just getting whipped every game. Typical scores 200 to 40.

My games are all pretty much the same. My opponent chases me around the board trying to capture huge blocks of my stones and I spend all my time trying to stop him.

Is this the normal learning curve? Any suggestions on how to improve my survival skills?

I play on Yahoo and Panda.net.

Thanks for any help you can offer.


If you are getting whipped every game by 40+ points, you are not taking enough handicap stones.

Is what you describe normal? Yup. Go is hard. (But don't go shopping instead. ;))

Even before learning survival skills, this is a important lesson:

Don't let your opponent chase you around the board.

There may be exceptions, OC, where you have to run in order to live. However, more games are lost by running than by not running.

Will you lose groups by not running? Yup. (Go is hard.) During my first year of play I usually lost two or three groups per game. ;) That leads us to the second important lesson:

Sacrifice stones.

That is, if you lose stones, get something from them in return. Build a wall or secure other stones. (BTW, an important survival skill is to sacrifice a few stones to secure the rest. :))

The next piece of advice is just what I think. Your experience so far is that your opponent attacks you and you defend. The answer that comes to mind is to learn defense. My advice is to change your attitude. Instead of defending, attack. Attack like hell. If you lose a group, build a wall, and then use that wall to attack your opponent later. A defeatist attitude leads to defeat.

Welcome to go! And good luck! :)
Author:  xed_over [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
Bill Spight wrote:
The next piece of advice is just what I think. Your experience so far is that your opponent attacks you and you defend. The answer that comes to mind is to learn defense. My advice is to change your attitude. Instead of defending, attack. Attack like hell. If you lose a group, build a wall, and then use that wall to attack your opponent later. A defeatist attitude leads to defeat.

this describes my problem exactly. I think I defend too much, and don't attack enough. Go is hard.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
I had very little time to write this morning...

As I said, we all got clobbered when we first started. Go has one of the hardest learning curves of any game. It will get frustrating and confusing as you keep trying to learn and still keep getting beat. But hang in there. It will get better. It will get easier.
We all went through the frustrating period when we learned. And everyone of us can tell you that it was worth it.

As suggested by several other people, play on a 9x9 board. ( Maybe even smaller ) On a large board, there are just so many things going on that it is hard to learn. On the smaller board you are more likely to see the immediate effects of your own moves - you can see which moves of yours led to good results, and which did not.

"Corner, side, middle" is also good advice.

Another good mantra for beginners: "Connect your stones; separate your opponent's stones."

Someone posted something about playing a lot around the 3rd and 4th ranks. That is generally a good place to start.

And most importantly: post your games for review. Right now, the best we can give you is general advice. But if we see one of your games we can give you particular advice, tailored just for you. ( Nobody will laugh at them, because we played the same way when we first started learning. )

Welcome to L19.
Author:  karaklis [ Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
Some of the points have already been mentioned in one way or the other...

Learn to throw away some unimportant stones and attack your opponent or make a big point instead. Let him get four, six or ten points by capturing your stones while you make ten, twelve or twenty points somewhere else.

Focus on connecting your stones and separating your opponent's stones instead of concentrating too much on territory.

Avoid contact moves during the opening phase, this is a common beginners' mistake. However if your opponent plays a contact move, consider to play a hane: the proverb says "on tsuke play hane".

Give your groups enough space to breathe. If they don't already have enough space for two eyes, make sure they can escape into the center.
Author:  fadasa [ Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
"If I go here, he'll go there".
Author:  Stefany93 [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
Harleqin wrote:
Play on smaller boards.



Smaller boards are for kids. If you are a kid, you are welcome to play on them, but if you are not a kid, play on normal boards. Then you will improve greatly.
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
Stefany93 wrote:
Harleqin wrote:
Play on smaller boards.



Smaller boards are for kids. If you are a kid, you are welcome to play on them, but if you are not a kid, play on normal boards. Then you will improve greatly.



That just doesn't relate to each other.
Without the knowledge of making use of your stones, especially how (far) and in which direction to extend to make a base or form the outlines of a framework, bigger boards is mere wide and unknown space for a beginner. If you just play contact fights all over, you can do that on a smaller board in lesser time, I don't think the result would be different.
I find 13*13 (15*15?) quite good for starters.
On the other side, I know kids, who easily destroy me on a 19*19 board.
Author:  Harleqin [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
Stefany93 wrote:
Harleqin wrote:
Play on smaller boards.

Smaller boards are for kids. If you are a kid, you are welcome to play on them, but if you are not a kid, play on normal boards. Then you will improve greatly.


If you have not understood 4x4, why do you think that you can understand 9x9, let alone 19x19?
Author:  judicata [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
Stefany93 wrote:
Harleqin wrote:
Play on smaller boards.



Smaller boards are for kids. If you are a kid, you are welcome to play on them, but if you are not a kid, play on normal boards. Then you will improve greatly.



This is just not true. Starting on smaller boards can be extremely helpful.
Author:  Stefany93 [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
Small boards are for go players that are not serious. No offence meant! It is go, not chess. No offence again!
Author:  Harleqin [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner getting destroyed
Stefany93 wrote:
Small boards are for go players that are not serious. No offence meant! It is go, not chess. No offence again!


No, I do not think it is offensive. I think that you simply have no idea what you are talking about.
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