What time limits do you and your opponents find most enjoyable?
As for improvement, at your level time spent in review is probably more important than time spent playing. Taking up to one hour to review a game is not a bad idea.
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| Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12692 |
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| Author: | neocortex [ Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
Hi all, Having learned the rules last February, but then having not played much since, I began January this year determined to play more and increase my strength. I'm currently floating around 16K. My question is quite simple (but the answer might not be!): What is the optimum game time for someone at the beginner/intermediate kyu levels wishing to improve? I am currently playing either correspondence games or 15 mins with 3x30s byo-yomi. The former seems too slow (I don't have a great deal to think about), and at times the latter seems too fast (when determining life status of groups etc.). Cheers, Jim. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:53 am ] |
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Hi Jim, It really depends on the person. You're correct: at times, you don't have much to think about. But for tricky situations, 30 secs seem too fast. Canadian time control could be nice: it lets you allocate your time (e.g. 20 minutes/15 moves) instead of a fixed time per move (e.g. 30 secs/move). A drawback is you do have to manage your time wisely. As a very general guideline for someone your level, 2 seconds for every move is too fast; and 1 minute for every move is too slow; you have to find out which time settings work for you, from actual experience. |
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| Author: | neocortex [ Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
Perfect - thanks for swift response! |
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| Author: | Jhyn [ Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
I think it is important to play slower games from time to time (30 or 40 minutes main time), on the days when you have the energy to do a lot of reading. I don't see a point to play slow games when you feel tired, but slow games are the most important to progress. However I would recommend at your level to never go under 10 minutes + 30s byo-yomi or 5/25 canadian or something similar. This way you don't necessarily have time to read the life status of everything but at least you can think about a few options at each move. |
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| Author: | neocortex [ Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
That's very useful - thank you both. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
What time limits do you and your opponents find most enjoyable? As for improvement, at your level time spent in review is probably more important than time spent playing. Taking up to one hour to review a game is not a bad idea. |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
neocortex wrote: 15 mins with 3x30s byo-yomi [...] seems too fast (when determining life status of groups etc.) I may be biased from online play, but to me this doesn't seem fast. If you haven't seen it yet, I highly recommend Haylee's youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTji1k ... 5dB_Vxka9g She is a (former?) professional who plays against players online and talks through her thought process. Most of her games use time settings like 5 mins + 3x30s, and they don't feel like blitz or reckless play at all. I personally learned a lot in watching how she manages her time. Obviously her reading is very fast, but if you are calm and focus on reading important moves, 30s is usually enough. If you really need more time for a specific complex situation, you can often play a sente move or a ko threat to gain 30 more seconds. If both players use 30s for each move, and the game lasts 200 moves, that's 100 minutes, more than an hour and a half. Of course you probably don't use 30s for each move, and if you tracked how much time you spend per move (servers like kgs will record it in the sgf for you) it would probably look more like: 2s, 5s, 1s, 10s, 2s, 3s, 16s, 25s, 1s, etc. etc. One skill that can make time management easier (and improve your play in general) is just to start reading sooner; don't wait for the complex life and death situation to start reading, but try to read ahead and use your time wisely for each move. |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
To follow up, Fedya recently posted a game for review here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12602 This game was 226 moves, and the time setting was 20 minutes with 60s byo-yomi. He never went into byo-yomi, ending the game with 21s on the clock. I pulled out the number of seconds he used for each of the 113 moves he played: 10 10 6 4 10 4 4 8 23 4 4 6 6 6 37 16 4 3 2 4 4 5 14 3 4 14 3 14 4 9 23 5 7 6 10 10 33 5 4 22 4 8 18 53 12 16 7 4 5 7 45 19 9 20 9 6 9 4 18 7 7 11 6 40 5 5 6 4 6 6 6 8 4 60 4 3 7 52 61 3 3 4 3 7 3 34 8 33 3 3 3 6 6 2 6 7 6 6 5 12 4 4 3 8 13 3 4 7 3 3 3 7 0 Only 10 of the moves took him more than 30 seconds to play. The median move time was 6 seconds. (Sorry Fedya, I am not picking on you. I would use my own game, but unfortunately tygem doesn't record this information. This was the most recent kgs game I could find in the review forum.) I think players often feel a pressure from byo-yomi that doesn't exist. They see the timer and think "oh know I won't be able to find a move in 30s!" and panic. But if you just played as if the timer wasn't there, you would probably pick a move before 30 seconds anyway. |
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| Author: | sybob [ Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
I think beginners and intermediates have a tendency to play too fast. I'm speaking of myself, of course. A guide for you may be a club timing scheme: 45 min + 10x 30 sec. That's the schedule we use, but I think is also widely used elsewhere. The tendency to play too fast led me to the following idea. I want to introduce a sort of reverse timing: a player is not allowed to play a move within say 30 seconds. If we had some time experimenting with this, I'll let you know how it went. Most importantly: -1- Have fun either way, whatever the schedule -2- Mutually agree on timing on beforehand (and no clock errors please) |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
sybob wrote: The tendency to play too fast led me to the following idea. I want to introduce a sort of reverse timing: a player is not allowed to play a move within say 30 seconds. Interesting idea.  Especially for the opening.
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| Author: | DrStraw [ Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
I am with Bill here. I think it far more important to spend time reviewing the game and the actual time spend on play is not so important. Weaker players have a tendency to play way too slow and the time is mostly wasted. Until you reach SDK, maybe even 5k, don't spend a lot of time on the game. Spend two or three times more on the review than you do on the game. |
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| Author: | jeromie [ Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
Bill Spight wrote: What time limits do you and your opponents find most enjoyable? I think this is the key for beginners. To improve, you need to play a lot of games, and most people won't play if they aren't having fun. Find a time setting that works for you (and is relatively easy to find opponents), and keep playing! |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
I will be playing a three hour main time game today .
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| Author: | DrStraw [ Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
Uberdude wrote: I will be playing a three hour main time game today .You're not a beginner. |
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| Author: | Tumtumtum [ Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
It doesn't matter what you do, you will improve in any way at that level. |
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| Author: | Calvin Clark [ Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
If you try different settings, you'll probably notice that at some point your quality of play starts to drop off dramatically as you turn on the time pressure. You may also find that at some point, more time just doesn't result in better plays. It may even get worse due to overthinking, which can cause you to play weird moves rather than normal ones. In my case, it looks like this. Like many things, the knee in curve is the sweet spot Attachment: time.png [ 8.5 KiB | Viewed 15031 times ] |
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| Author: | Tryss [ Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
Note that long thinking time means longer game. Can you stay focused for 2 hours? 4 hours? |
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| Author: | neocortex [ Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
I play chess to tournament level, so yes I am able to focus for 5+ hours. However, this is my problem: In chess, it is often recommended beginners play longer games, but it seems (anecdotally, at least) that for Go, longer games are the preserve of stronger players, and beginners are recommended to play shorter games (so you can play more). Just an interesting contrast. Cheers, Jim. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: beginners are recommended to play shorter games (so you can play more). Hi Jim, this , and that .
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| Author: | xed_over [ Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Optimum game time for beginners/intermediates |
neocortex wrote: In chess, it is often recommended beginners play longer games, but it seems (anecdotally, at least) that for Go, longer games are the preserve of stronger players, and beginners are recommended to play shorter games (so you can play more). Just an interesting contrast. I usually recommend that beginners play shorter games for a number of reasons, the primary one being... - they usually don't know enough to use long thinking times effectively, trying to choose between a bad move and a worse move -- it doesn't matter which one they pick. The sooner they pick one, the sooner they'll learn why it was wrong and not to do it again. Else, too much time will pass, and they'll forget what they played or why, and won't learn. when I was a beginner, I was paralyzed at being able to play faster games -- I couldn't do it. But now I see the benefits of why I should have tried. As you get stronger, you need more time to analyze different possible variations. Though it can also be good to play fast games here too, to train your instincts. |
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