Life In 19x19
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The wall
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1318		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  VannLucas [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:51 am ]
Post subject:  The wall
So, I am around 12 Kyu now. I've been playing since April, and I play quite a lot.

For the past two weeks I've hit a wall. I've read many books, done loads of tsumego, played both online and offline, and here are the results of my past 20 games online:

Loss+Res
Loss+Res
Loss+6.5
Loss+97.5
Loss+30.5
Loss+Res
Loss+Res
Loss+Res
Loss+Res
Win+Res
Loss+50.5
Loss+Res
Loss+Res
Loss+Res
Loss+Res
Loss+Res
Win+Res
Loss+Res
Loss+Res
Loss+Res

Now, the wins I got? One was against someone who'd only played one game prior to me (and lost) against a 16k, so their bar said [16k?]. The second, they resigned after one corner was lost.

Now. Of these online games, -two- I enjoyed playing (And oddly they weren't the wins) which were against a 7k and a 1d. All the others were against DDKs and I'll be honest, some of them made me feel ill after playing. The losses hurt, badly.

Offline I play a lot of dan-levels, due to my club, and I -really- enjoy those games. The moves make sense to me, because I've probably been "spoiled" since the start by players who know very well what they do. I think the problem for me now is that because of this, I expect the same level of play from my opponents at my level. Which hasn't happened in one game out of all those losses. I've not had enough experience to learn how to "punish" very well, and I end up in awful situations and end up resigning due to no other option that I can see.

A friend is loaning me the 1001 Tsumego book, and I hope it will help me recognise more things to deal with.. But still.. Any other advice? I play good games when it's against stronger opponents (in example my 4d game, though with handicap, was a loss by only 36.5 points) but "even level" or, seemingly more increasive, lower ranked opponents just rip through me. My reading won't be as good, and I'll just.. Fail. I think it's psychological on my end, too. Maybe I don't read ahead enough because I don't expect them to be as strong, but the main problem I think is that I don't know how to deal with "bad" moves. As such, they somehow turn into good ones for the opponent.

My rank on KGS is almost back to 16 because of all these losses, and I have no idea how to get out of this funk.

Any advice, experiences, etc. would be greatly appreciated.
Author:  Li Kao [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
Post a representative game as sgf, else we can't see what you're doing wrong.
Author:  VannLucas [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
My first loss when this all started:


One a few days ago:


And the most recent:


Another thing I've noticed about my games is that they're slowly getting worse, too.
Author:  MagicMagor [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
Yeah a sgf might be a good idea.

But still some things come to mind.

One thing is, do you count? Counting, or at least roughly estimating, the territory on the board during a game can help very much. If you are ahead, you don't need to try anything reckless (which might endanger your lead) but instead can focus on securing and defending what you have. If you are behind on the other hand, you know you have to do something. Trying an invasion which looks difficult or something like that.

If you play a lot of dan-players you might have a good intuition regarding shape, so in DDKs don't be afraid to experiment. Instead of looking for "that right move" just try something that looks good or interessting. Not sure you can kill it? Try it anyway, maybe it will work, maybe it won't but in both cases you have learnt something.
Trust your feelings if you can't read a position out, maybe thats where playing all these dans pay off.

One final note on "punishing" mistakes.
Not every mistake has to be punished. Some mistakes are punishing themself, like a wrong direction or just inefficent moves. Of course there are also overplays where you have to "punish" the mistake, but don't try to punish everything which seems wrong.

For more specific advise, i would have to see a game of yours.
Author:  usagi [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
VannLucas wrote:
My first loss when this all started:


One a few days ago:


And the most recent:


Another thing I've noticed about my games is that they're slowly getting worse, too.


Hi, I don't think you quoted the games properly, but I took a look and here's what I think.

I think you are trying to play too many sente moves and not enough honte moves. For example in your most recent game as you posted here, you moved at L4 instead of saving J4. Why didn't you save your stone? It's things like that, trying to play sente without playing honte first, that is tripping you up.

Also as a general perspective you will want to learn a lot more josekis and study the opening of some pro games, if you want to get a better picture of the opening of the game. Today's professionals are difficult to learn from. I suggest Japanese pro matches played in the 50s and 60s. It was a difficult time for them and they played a kind of spectacular, yet easy to understand go that is very easy for a beginner to learn from.

That's just my take on it anyways.

Finally, please allow me to recommend to you the book "Opening Theory made Easy" by Otake Hideo. That book more than anything is what brought me from 16k to about 10k
Author:  VannLucas [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
Thanks for the tips and reccomendations guys. I'll definitely look into them!
Author:  Li Kao [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
Extend more when you're atari'd. If the new stone has 3 liberties extending and thus saving the atari'd stone(s) is usually good. Default move should be extending out of the atari, except when you really get something bigger in return for sacrificing the stone.
And you need to do more tsumego.
Author:  illluck [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
Yeah, I think you should save stones more often (more specifically, save key stones - this requires you being able to distinguish between useless and key stones). Also, learn the common 3-3 invasion sequence.
Author:  judicata [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
Tsumego and what everyone else says.

Also, don't play any games on KGS for several days. You will only get stronger.
Author:  cdybeijing [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
My friend, there is no such thing as a wall at DDK. I say this seriously.

Even if you lose 50 games in a row, you are learning something every game, or you are consciously discovering your weaknesses.

You'll take a big jump sooner or later. Keep at it - it's a good fight to be in.
Author:  Numsgil [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
cdybeijing wrote:
My friend, there is no such thing as a wall at DDK. I say this seriously.


Kageyama said there was one at 12kyu in the "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" book. Right at the beginning of the book.

That said, a losing streak doesn't indicate you've hit a wall. Hitting the wall would have you winning 50% of your games over long stretches of time, without improving your rank. A losing streak indicates either that you're over-ranked or just that you've been particularly unlucky recently.

Also, as you practice new ideas (I hope you're practicing new ideas) you should expect to start losing more games, because you'll apply it improperly at first. So don't get too caught up in rank. View it as an indication of past performance instead of current strength.
Author:  usagi [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
cdybeijing wrote:
My friend, there is no such thing as a wall at DDK. I say this seriously.

Even if you lose 50 games in a row, you are learning something every game, or you are consciously discovering your weaknesses.

You'll take a big jump sooner or later. Keep at it - it's a good fight to be in.


There are three walls for DDKs.

20k, 16k, and 12k.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
First, some general advice.

Don't talk about a wall until you have been at the same rank for one year. In fact, don't even worry about rank for at least one year. :)

As a DDK playing against another DDK, do not resign. Your opponents are capable of humungous errors, especially at the end of play, when liberties are short. Also, your positional judgement is not very good.

When your opponent is another DDK, play 9x9 games. You need to learn how to punish their tactical errors and avoid your own.

Second, some comments about your third game. :)

[sgf-full](;SZ[19]GM[1]CA[UTF-8]AP[GOWrite:2.2.21]ST[2]FF[4]PM[0]PW[VannLucas]RU[Japanese]PB[moonpig]TM[120.0]BR[16k]FG[259:]RE[B+Resign]GN[ ]KM[0.5]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]DT[2010-08-08]WR[15k]
;C[VannLucas \[15k\]\: Have a good game.moonpig \[16k\]\: fast gamemoonpig \[16k\]\: gg,gl,hf]BL[117.425]B[pc]
(
;C[*** See variation.]W[dp]WL[106.826]
;BL[112.299]B[qp]
(
;C[*** See variation.]W[dd]WL[105.616]
;C[*** Unusual.]BL[107.174]B[oo]
(
;C[*** See variation.]W[kq]WL[102.532]
;BL[97.027]B[jp]
(
;C[*** See variation.]W[jq]WL[94.983]
;BL[87.682]B[iq]
;C[*** Good.]W[ip]WL[92.824]
;BL[83.703]B[io]
(
;C[*** Bad. See variation.]W[kp]WL[91.648]
;BL[78.087]B[jo]
(
;C[*** Bad. See variation.]W[ir]WL[88.882]
;BL[76.16]B[hp]
(
;C[*** Not good. See variation.]W[hq]WL[84.601]
;BL[73.003]B[hr]
(
;C[*** Not so good. See variation.]W[ip]WL[79.781]
;BL[68.446]B[gq]
;W[iq]WL[71.409]
;C[*** Bad.]BL[64.49]B[gs]
;C[*** Good.]W[gp]WL[67.369]
;BL[57.634]B[ho]
(
;C[*** See variation.]W[fq]WL[66.244]
;BL[54.833]B[fr]
(
;C[*** See variation.]W[gr]WL[59.195]
;C[moonpig \[16k\]\: ouch

*** Very bad.]BL[43.36]B[fs]
(
;C[*** See variation.]W[hs]WL[47.365]
;C[*** Very bad.]BL[39.232]B[er]
(
;C[*** See variation.]W[eq]WL[45.508]
;BL[35.125]B[dr]
(
;C[*** In general, do not attach to stones that you are attacking. See variation.]W[cr]WL[43.382]
;BL[33.748]B[cq]
;W[dq]WL[38.853]
;C[*** Bad.]BL[31.511]B[cs]
(
;C[*** Very bad. See variation.]W[bq]WL[36.737]
;BL[29.758]B[br]
;W[cp]WL[34.847]
;BL[27.997]B[cr]
(
;C[*** Bad. See variations.]W[ar]WL[31.492]
;BL[25.831]B[bp]
;W[bo]WL[24.153]
;BL[19.853]B[aq]
;C[*** Very bad. Black is alive. You should attack instead.]W[ao]WL[20.507]
;C[*** Very, very bad.]BL[14.845]B[as]
;C[*** Bad. Your group is secure. Attack!]W[nq]WL[8.809]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[mq]
;W[mp]WL[7.258]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[mr]
(
;C[*** Small. See variation.]W[nr]WL[5.142]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[np]
(
;C[*** Not so good. Bad shape. See variation.]W[lp]WL[3.416]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[ns]
(
;C[*** Not so good. See variation.]W[os]WL[1.753]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[or]
;W[ms]WL[0.01]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[oq]
;OW[5]W[lr]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[ns]
(
;C[*** Very bad. See variation.]OW[5]W[ls]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[lq]
;OW[5]W[nr]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[nq]
;C[*** Attack!]OW[5]W[cf]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[di]
;C[*** Bad. Aside from not attacking, it is relatively small.]OW[5]W[ch]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[eg]
;C[*** At last!]OW[5]W[mn]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[mo]
(
;C[*** See variation.]OW[5]W[lo]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[ln]
;OW[5]W[no]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[mm]
;OW[5]W[nm]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[lm]
(
;C[*** See variation.]OW[5]W[nl]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[on]
;OW[5]W[nn]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[ps]
(
;C[*** Small. See variations.]OW[5]W[kr]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]C[*** Good.]BL[30.0]B[mk]
(
;C[*** See variation.]OW[5]W[ok]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[ns]
;C[*** Small. Black is secure, as is White.]OW[5]W[pm]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[om]
;OW[5]W[ol]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[pl]
(
;C[*** See variation.]OW[5]W[pk]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[ql]
;OW[5]W[qm]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]C[VannLucas \[15k\]\: Danke. \:3moonpig \[16k\]\: ^^]BL[30.0]B[qk]
;OW[5]W[qj]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[rm]
(
;C[*** See variation.]OW[5]W[rk]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[rl]
;OW[5]W[rj]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[qn]
(
;C[*** See variation.]OW[5]W[ph]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[pi]
(
;C[*** Not so good. See variation. End of comments.]OW[5]W[qi]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[oj]
;OW[5]W[oi]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[nj]
;OW[5]W[pj]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[og]
;OW[5]W[pg]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[pf]
;OW[5]W[qf]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[qe]
;OW[5]W[of]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[pe]
;OW[5]W[ng]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[qg]
;OW[5]W[rf]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[rg]
;OW[5]W[rh]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[sf]
;OW[5]W[qh]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[re]
;OW[5]W[oe]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[od]
;OW[5]W[nd]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[ne]
;OW[5]W[nf]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[me]
;OW[5]W[oc]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[pd]
;OW[5]W[mc]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[md]
;OW[5]W[nc]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[lc]
;OW[5]W[ld]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[le]
;OW[5]W[kd]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[lb]
;OW[5]W[lf]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[ke]
;OW[5]W[jd]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[mb]
;OW[5]W[je]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[ob]
;OW[5]W[kf]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[nb]
;OW[5]W[hc]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[fd]
;OW[5]W[fc]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[ec]
;OW[5]W[fb]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[ed]
;OW[5]W[dc]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[eb]
;OW[5]W[db]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[fa]
;OW[5]W[gb]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[gd]
;OW[5]W[hd]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[gc]
;OW[5]W[hb]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[he]
;OW[5]W[ie]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[if]
;OW[5]W[jf]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[ig]
;OW[5]W[jg]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[jh]
;OW[5]W[kh]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[ki]
;OW[5]W[ji]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[ih]
;OW[5]W[kj]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[li]
;OW[5]W[lj]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[lh]
;OW[5]W[kg]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[mi]
;OW[5]W[mj]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[mg]
;OW[5]W[mf]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[ni]
;OW[5]W[nk]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[jj]
;OW[5]W[ii]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]BL[30.0]B[kk]
;OW[5]W[ml]WL[30.0]
;OB[5]C[VannLucas \[15k\]\: Here's exactly what I was talking about the other day. I lost a good, what, 20 moves ago? And I'm still playing.DanielTom \[5d\]\: I think the game is still playable for W, Vann moonpig \[16k\]\: ^^VannLucas \[15k\]\: Yeah, I spotted after I resigned]BL[30.0]B[lk]
)
(
;W[oi]
)

)
(
;W[qe]
)

)
(
;W[rj]
;B[rl]
)

)
(
;C[*** Ladder.]W[ql]
)

)
(
;W[qe]
)

)
(
;C[*** Attack!]W[jm]
;C[*** If Black connects, . . .]B[kn]
;W[lk]
;B[kl]
;W[kk]
;B[jl]
;W[ij]
;B[hk]
;W[hj]
;B[gk]
;C[*** Something like this, perhaps.]W[qe]
)

)
(
;W[on]
)

)
(
;C[*** Attack!]W[kn]
)

)
(
;C[*** Attack! Notice that White is also reducing the potential of the right side for Black.]W[lm]
)

)
(
;W[pr]
;B[pq]
;W[or]
;B[qr]
;W[lr]
;B[oq]
;W[lq]
)

)
(
;C[*** Cut sector line. Attack!]W[mo]
;C[*** If Black goes after these stones, . . .]B[oq]
;W[or]
;B[pr]
;W[pq]
;B[os]
;W[op]
;B[ns]
;W[no]
;B[qq]
)

)
(
;C[*** Protects the cutting point, threatens the Black invasion, cuts the sector line, attacking the floating Black stones, and threatens the hane at P-06. Not bad for one move. ]W[no]
)

)
(
;C[*** Threatens to kill. Better to leave until later.]W[bp]
)

(
;C[*** Also threatens to kill. Sometimes you may prefer this play. That is one reason to wait.]W[bo]
)

(
;C[*** But this is the main reason. Attack!]W[ln]
)

)
(
;W[br]
;B[bq]
;C[*** Snapback.]W[ds]
)

)
(
;W[cq]
(
;B[cr]
;W[bq]
;B[br]
;W[ar]
;B[bs]
;C[*** Black is dead.]W[ds]
)
(
;B[br]
;W[bq]
;B[ar]
;C[*** Black is dead.]W[cr]
)

)

)
(
;C[*** Can Black live? OC, cutting the sector line is good, too, even if Black lives in the corner.]W[cp]
)

)
(
;C[*** Cuts the sector line, attacks the Black floating stones.]W[ln]
)

)
(
;C[*** How does Black live?]W[eq]
)

)
(
;C[*** Even without reading you can see that this a good for White. Black has no eye on the bottom side and will have difficulty living, if that is possible. White, OTOH, has an eye and easy life with one more play. OC, White can live by killing Black. In addition, the Black stones around J-05 are floating, without an eye. White can easily attack them.]W[fp]
)

)
(
;W[gq]
;B[jr]
;C[*** Now the ko is big. Ignore any threat.]W[ip]
)

)
(
;W[mp]
(
;B[nq]
;C[*** Cuts a sector line.]W[mn]
)
(
;B[mn]
;C[*** Easy life. Black has weaknesses.]W[oq]
)

)

)
(
;W[hp]
)

)
(
;C[*** Now the Black J-03 stone is very weak and White has a cut cum atari at K-05. ]W[hp]
)

)
(
;C[*** This play separates Black. We say that it cuts the sector line between the K-04 stone and the P-05 stone. Cutting sector lines is generally good.]W[kp]
;B[jo]
;C[*** Ditto.]W[ko]
)

)
(
;C[*** Black would like to make a second enclosure. This approach prevents a severe pincer by Black.]W[qf]
)

)
(
;W[oq]
)

)
(
;W[pp]
;B[cd]
;C[***This approach has a good relation with the White stone in the bottom right.]W[qe]
)

)[/sgf-full]
Author:  Magicwand [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
bill: man of your strength commenting on this game...i respect your patience.
i think for DDK's game should be reviewed by SDKs whith patience :)
how can you comment on a game that is 99% wrong... lol
Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
usagi wrote:
cdybeijing wrote:
My friend, there is no such thing as a wall at DDK. I say this seriously.

Even if you lose 50 games in a row, you are learning something every game, or you are consciously discovering your weaknesses.

You'll take a big jump sooner or later. Keep at it - it's a good fight to be in.


There are three walls for DDKs.

20k, 16k, and 12k.


The only walls are in your mind.

Screw Kageyama.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
Magicwand wrote:
bill: man of your strength commenting on this game...i respect your patience.
i think for DDK's game should be reviewed by SDKs whith patience :)
how can you comment on a game that is 99% wrong... lol


Vann has talent. He should not be picking up bad habits from DDKs or SDKs. Let him pick up bad habits from dan players. ;)
Author:  Needo [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
Try commenting and reviewing a set number of games each week/month. During the review try to find three places where you could have made a better move, and then do the same thing for your opponent's moves. Make a note of what your plan was when you played tenuki on three moves. Obviously there are more things to do on a review. But if you are anything like my self you will drop it quickly if it becomes too much work. :sad: After you do this for a few games, you will become aware on a new and deeper level while playing your games. Once you see the benefit, you can add more goals to accomplish in your reviews. Or, you can review a larger percentage of your games. Also, for the fun of it, try playing a few high handicap games. These games are a great exercise in learning how to fight.
Author:  VannLucas [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
Thank again for the advice guys. Bill, I've looked through the variations on the game you reviewed. It's funny, looking at the stuff you pointed out it really does make sense. I'll take your advice on playing some 9x9 games, I'm sure they'll help.

Again, everyone thanks for the constructive advice! Here's hoping two weeks from now (Staying off KGS as much as I can this week as advised, and I am on vacation - with my board, stones, and books - the week after. That said, I should be playing a few real-life games, as well as recording the games as I got a hold of kifu papers, which should be fun) I'll be posting the complete opposite to my first on this topic.
Author:  Hushfield [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
Magicwand wrote:
bill: man of your strength commenting on this game...i respect your patience.
i think for DDK's game should be reviewed by SDKs whith patience :)
how can you comment on a game that is 99% wrong... lol
Seriously? Magicwand, how can you consider yourself a go player if this is your attitude toward other people trying to learn from their mistakes? Your post is the first one ever that made me look for the "dislike this post" button.
Author:  Tryphon [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The wall
We have a "like" button, but we need a "love" one and Bill clearly deserves it :)
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