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New to Go 15kyu? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2424	Page 1 of 1

Author:	paulsim [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:04 am ]
Post subject:	New to Go 15kyu?
Hi I am new to the forum and Go. I am a very much a beginner player. I recently played chess until discovering go. I decided to try to get to an 8 kyu level. This is a game I played. I don't know any joseki, I know you can invade 3-3 point if you're on 4-4. I was trying to build influence but it didn't work out the way I wanted it to. I would like for someone to look at the game see where I went wrong. I lost by 19 stones. Thanks much. [sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2] RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.50]TM[1500]OT[5x30 byo-yomi] PW[hna4610]PB[paulsim]WR[13k]BR[14k]DT[2010-11-23]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[hna4610 [13k\]: hi paulsim [14k\]: hi ]RE[W+19.50] ;B[pp]BL[1491.49] ;W[dd]WL[1492.365] ;B[pd]BL[1488.42] ;W[cp]WL[1488.651] ;B[qj]BL[1472.279] ;W[nq]WL[1483.589] ;B[pq]BL[1441.71] ;W[kp]WL[1477.18] ;B[lp]BL[1405.977] ;W[lq]WL[1474.745] ;B[mp]BL[1398.002] ;W[mq]WL[1473.081] ;B[ko]BL[1382.955] ;W[jp]WL[1469.396] ;B[ep]BL[1370.648] ;W[eo]WL[1463.82] ;B[dp]BL[1360.592] ;W[do]WL[1461.815] ;B[fo]BL[1347.347] ;W[fp]WL[1459.183] ;B[fq]BL[1333.904] ;W[gp]WL[1457.246] ;B[gq]BL[1316.274] ;W[go]WL[1452.328] ;B[cq]BL[1310.937] ;W[bp]WL[1439.576] ;B[bq]BL[1308.249] ;W[eq]WL[1434.246] ;B[dq]BL[1306.015] ;W[er]WL[1429.071] ;B[fr]BL[1292.892] ;W[dr]WL[1426.638] ;B[cr]BL[1288.595] ;W[fs]WL[1423.854] ;B[gs]BL[1282.757] ;W[hq]WL[1421.23] ;B[es]BL[1279.505] ;W[hr]WL[1418.291] ;B[fn]BL[1266.608] 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Author:	Gresil [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
Some thoughts, serve with a grain of salt. 7: not a very appropriate reply. The most common choices will include Q6 and M3 depending on what you want to do. If you already had a stone around the center of the lower side, then you could close the corner and attack white simultaneously with P3. Just backing down into the corner is sort of unnecessarily passive. 9: an unexpectedly in-white's-face initiative, may be premature. Your own outward wall is left weak by your tenuki at the end of the sequence. 15: I would likely play this approach too, but I think O4 is needed first. I think white may not make the best response at 16 — he might have had a better result with the pincer at G3 but I'm slightly out of my depth here. 43: Here's an important point; you've just started developing a heavy floating group (the F5 group), but with this move you're weakening it by forcing white to close up on it. White should gladly oblige. 46 possibly ought to have been at H7, for a more powerful attack on your floating group. 52 and 54 are very bad moves from white. White should've pushed through at G6 or J6. 57: J17 would be the all-around safe standard move here. It settles your group and weakens the white stone to its right. White would have some problems making a base on the side. 61: A strange choice to make here. It doesn't really gain anything, merely strengthens white's corner, and O17 does in my opinion require a local response. 65-79: your play is pretty much as I would play here, so it'll take someone stronger to find fault. 78-80: notice how white gets a free move inside your sphere of influence because of the weakness that was left behind earlier. 81: S4 would make nicer shape. 87: I think one space lower at R7 would have been the weak point to attack here.

Author:	Toge [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
You didn't "go wrong" by losing the game. For every winner there is a loser. In this game it had to be you. Don't feel bad. Anyway, I added some comments on small matters. Many of your moves were formally correct, so I found it hard to actually start criticizing them. I suggest you study direction of play and reducing large frameworks (moyo). Pay attention to places where you can get lots of territory and on the other hand where opponent is getting lots of territory. Moves at borders of these places are very big.

Author:	Stefany93 [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
Welcome to the go world. From now on, until you reach 8k you will be constantly told to give up Go, everyone will tell you that your play is awful, you will lose many and I really mean many games and you will feel like a jerk. Then you will give up go for a week or so and then come back again with strong will not to give up anymore. If you wish to improve these tips helped me mostly. 1. Ready books! First, read all the books by Janice Kim and you will automaticay move to 10k. Then Otake Hideo. After that, The Elementary go series. 2. Solve around 10 problems per a day and it is mandatory to solve problems only higher than your level! Otherwise you will learn a little. 3. Don't give up go unless you are stuck to 15k for 1 year.

Author:	emeraldemon [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
you probably realize this already, but when you play the monkey jump at C19 and your opponent played on top at C18, you have to draw back to D19. B18 (your move) probably cost you 7 points or so.

Author:	CnP [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
Quote: From now on, until you reach 8k you will be constantly told to give up Go, everyone will tell you that your play is awful - ahem I think you hang around with the wrong sort of players Stefany93 . If anyone was like that with me I'd either ban them (on KGS) or not bother with them ('real' life). Anyone that is that negative is just playing mind games whether they know it or not.

Author:	palapiku [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
8k is a strange goal...

Author:	Chew Terr [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
palapiku wrote: 8k is a strange goal... Eh, it was my goal for a long time, as I wanted to become solidly SDK. Nothing wrong with that! Good luck, Paulsim!

Author:	Stefany93 [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
Chew Terr wrote: palapiku wrote: 8k is a strange goal... Eh, it was my goal for a long time, as I wanted to become solidly SDK. Nothing wrong with that! Good luck, Paulsim! Yeah, it is good that he has achievable goals. Not like some crazy people who wants to become world champions when they stuck on 9k for ages

Author:	oren [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
Stefany93 wrote: 3. Don't give up go unless you are stuck to 15k for 1 year. Just change this to "Don't give up go". There's no reason to ever stop as long as it is fun.

Author:	paulsim [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
Hi all Thanks for the wonderful replies . Especially Gresil and Toge. Quote: I suggest you study direction of play and reducing large frameworks (moyo). That is exactly what I need at the moment, would you happen to know of any good books on the subject? I know I need to make my groups work together and see the whole picture. I need to see where the big points are. I doubt that any starting kyu player has done this without playing lots of games. I've got maybe 52 games in thus far mostly vs gnugo, and players on the internet. Some players went over the game with me, which I helped dramatically. I was Very surprised by that, vs the chess community. I am glad to discovered the ultimate game of go. I saw on the other forums that gnugo isn't very strong and you can pick up bad habits. I was looking for another free go program, that plays more like a human. My internet drops in and out sometimes it doesn't let me connect back until 15 minutes later. (clearwire) Which is very frustrating when you are playing kgs. Quote: you probably realize this already, but when you play the monkey jump at C19 and your opponent played on top at C18, you have to draw back to D19. B18 (your move) probably cost you 7 points or so. I got greedy thinking I could make something live in that corner. Regarding the 8K, I was reading on Wiki an 8k player can beat a computer. In my mind that seems like something I would want to do. Thanks again, I will be lurking around this form a lot more, and maybe when I reach a level that I can contribute something, I will.

Author:	palapiku [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
paulsim wrote: Regarding the 8K, I was reading on Wiki an 8k player can beat a computer. In my mind that seems like something I would want to do. Thanks again, I will be lurking around this form a lot more, and maybe when I reach a level that I can contribute something, I will. The strongest computers these days are 2d on KGS. The wiki page must have been written before the advent of Monte Carlo bots. I pretty much lost all hope of catching up with computers - by the time I get to 2d they will no doubt have advanced further

Author:	paulsim [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
palapiku wrote: paulsim wrote: Regarding the 8K, I was reading on Wiki an 8k player can beat a computer. In my mind that seems like something I would want to do. Thanks again, I will be lurking around this form a lot more, and maybe when I reach a level that I can contribute something, I will. The strongest computers these days are 2d on KGS. The wiki page must have been written before the advent of Monte Carlo bots. I pretty much lost all hope of catching up with computers - by the time I get to 2d they will no doubt have advanced further 19x19?

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
Welcome to the forum. Move 5 is a tad innaccurate. It puts a low stone in where a high stone belongs. Drop by Sensei's library and have a look at subjects like sanresai ( http://senseis.xmp.net/?SanRenSei ) and high vs low ( http://senseis.xmp.net/?HighAndLowMoves ). The concept of high and low is the more important of the two. Move 7 is ... um...well... sorry, but it is a terrible move. One-on-one contact moves ( otherwise known as attachments ) are generally defensive moves. You appear to be trying to attack. See http://senseis.xmp.net/?Attachment. Move 17 should be at F5. At D4, it creates a pattern that is usually not good. See http://senseis.xmp.net/?HaneAtTheHeadOfTwoStones ( There were lots of other errors, but I'm only pointing out the ones that can be corrected by applying some concept or proverb that you need to know to get stronger. ) BTW, moves 67 thru 73 were dan level moves. Aspiring to be 8K is beneath you. You should aim for shodan.

Author:	BaghwanB [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
Hey! Glad to see that you got a game up here and have received a good amount of feedback on it. Feel free to repeat this when you have more questions. After seeing a full game of yours I'd say as far as more book guidance goes, keep chugging through Janice Kim's books. You've got a good enough grasp of the basic concepts to "get" what she talks about in the 3rd-5th books so they should help point you in the right direction towards better play. I'll try to remember to bring the 3rd one to the next club meeting so even if you don't have a copy we can at least go over a few of the topics in it. Keep at it and I'm sure I'll be taking handicap stones from you before too long (it's happened before plenty of times...). Bruce "Trainer to the Star(point)s" Young

Author:	emeraldemon [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
If you're looking for a free good Go AI, I recommend Fuego http://fuego.sourceforge.net/ You'll want to run it with GoGui, the link is on that page. It's about 4k or so on the 19x19 I think, at least on my laptop. One advantage to monte-carlo bots is that they scale well with more processors, so Fuego running on a 16-core cluster is significantly stronger than on my little core 2 duo. When people say strongest AIs are around 2 dan, this is typically what they mean.

Author:

paulsim [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:59 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: New to Go 15kyu?

This is me vs a 17 kyu I am white. I ended up blundering it at the very end. :shock:

I should have just connected the two eyes. I have to do more life and death problems. :study:

I feel like I improved even though I lost. Big difference between the last game I played. All the comments and advice helped. I feel like I was the winner regardless. :clap:

Thanks again!

Quote:

BTW, moves 67 thru 73 were dan level moves. Aspiring to be 8K is beneath you. You should aim for shodan.

Thanks Gosei! What is a shodan? I am guessing it's anything above dan level? or does it mean grandmaster dan?

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
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;B[rq]BL[561.584]
;W[gn]WL[733.972]
;B[gm]BL[520.61]
;W[em]WL[718.713]
;B[dn]BL[502.868]
;W[gp]WL[697.015]
;B[hp]BL[497.146]
;W[fq]WL[692.496]
;B[fp]BL[476.164]
;W[dq]WL[683.947]
;B[gq]BL[468.233]
;W[go]WL[673.336]
;B[hn]BL[448.445]
;W[fn]WL[637.164]
;B[fr]BL[413.416]
;W[eq]WL[616.542]
;B[ep]BL[408.716]
;W[cp]WL[593.724]
;B[fm]BL[374.674]
;W[en]WL[589.802]
;B[co]BL[369.676]
;W[bq]WL[531.829]
;B[bp]BL[343.687]
;W[cq]WL[528.876]
;B[bn]BL[331.939]
;W[cm]WL[526.408]
;B[dm]BL[323.445]
;W[el]WL[485.371]
;B[cl]BL[279.322]
;W[fl]WL[473.814]
;B[bm]BL[248.138]
;W[ap]WL[461.831]
;B[bo]BL[242.94]
;W[ck]WL[455.193]
;B[bk]BL[233.009]
;W[dl]WL[443.723]
;B[bl]BL[228.607]
;W[bj]WL[437.436]
;B[ao]BL[221.512]
;W[aq]WL[435.534]
;B[ml]BL[202.994]
;W[mk]WL[362.605]
;B[mm]BL[181.08]
;W[nh]WL[348.099]
;B[oi]BL[175.748]
;W[qk]WL[313.466]
;B[rj]BL[156.319]
;W[rk]WL[274.435]
;B[oj]BL[145.452]
;W[ro]WL[261.442]
;B[rp]BL[133.124]
;W[so]WL[242.263]
;B[sp]BL[130.18]
;W[rm]WL[234.987]
;B[ok]BL[124.796]
;W[nl]WL[201.757]
;B[lm]BL[113.156]
;W[pl]WL[150.262]
;B[ol]BL[97.398]
;W[om]WL[147.912]
;B[oo]BL[94.187]
;W[er]WL[104.474]
;B[fs]BL[82.844]
;W[es]WL[92.465]
;B[hr]BL[81.012]
;W[js]WL[51.462]
;B[pk]BL[77.554]
;W[sj]WL[30.429]
;B[si]BL[67.167]
;W[sk]WL[24.614]
;B[ri]BL[58.763]
;W[mh]WL[4.578]
;B[mi]BL[56.479]
;W[kj]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[ki]BL[36.356]
;W[kh]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[kk]BL[32.027]
;W[hh]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[ih]BL[30.509]
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;B[if]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[hf]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[he]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[gf]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[ge]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[fe]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[fd]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[ie]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[jf]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[gd]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[hd]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[gc]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[ff]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[ee]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[gg]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[ef]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[hg]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[fg]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[jg]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[gf]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[fh]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[eh]WL[30]OW[5]
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;W[fc]WL[30]OW[5]
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;W[ei]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[lf]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[lg]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[kf]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[cg]WL[30]OW[5]
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;B[ak]BL[30]OB[5]
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;W[dk]WL[30]OW[5]
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;W[hb]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[ib]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[gb]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[ha]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[ga]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[ia]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[rb]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[pa]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[qa]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[oa]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[pc]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[lc]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[is]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[hs]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[ir]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[lp]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[kq]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[lq]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[lr]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[kn]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[jo]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[mp]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[cr]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[sf]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[se]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[sg]BL[30]OB[5]
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;B[gj]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[ej]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[fk]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[kg]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[io]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[eo]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[fo]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[do]BL[30]OB[5]
;W[]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[ls]BL[30]OB[4]
(;W[ks]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[ms]BL[30]OB[4]
(;W[bh]WL[30]OW[5]
;B[kr]BL[30]OB[4]
;W[mr]WL[30]OW[4]
;B[jr]BL[30]OB[4]
;W[]WL[30]OW[4]
;B[]BL[30]OB[4]TW[aa][ba][ca][da][ea][fa][ra][sa][ab][bb][cb][db][eb][fb][qb][sb][ac][bc][dc][ec][rc][sc][ad][bd][cd][ed][fd][rd][sd][ae][be][ce][de][re][af][bf][cf][df][ag][bg][dg][eg][mg][ah][ch][dh][bi][di][cj][ql][rl][sl][sm][rn][sn][ar][br][dr][as][bs][cs][ds]TB[ja][ka][la][ma][na][jb][kb][lb][mb][nb][ic][jc][kc][mc][id][kd][ld][ie][je][ke][le][ig][gh][hh][rh][sh][gi][hi][ii][pi][qi][kj][lj][pj][al][am][cm][an][cn][in][jn][mn][jo][ko][mo][kp][np][qp][iq][jq][kq][mq][nq][oq][qq][sq][gr][ir][lr][mr][nr][or][pr][rr][sr][gs][is][js][ks][ns][os][ps][rs][ss])
(;W[mr]
;B[kr]
;W[ns]))
(;W[kr]
;B[ms]
;W[mr]))[/sgf-full]

Attachments:

paulsim-vital.sgf [5.47 KiB]
Downloaded 404 times

Author:	CSamurai [ Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
Shodan is another way of saying 1dan. First level. Commonly used for both black belt and go rankings.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
You're welcome. BTW, "gosei" is not my handle. It is a rank that I earned by posting lots of drivel like this.

Author:	paulsim [ Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: New to Go 15kyu?
oops sorry, Joaz Banbeck

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