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scoring-counting Territory
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Author:  markeemark [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  scoring-counting Territory
Hi all

I know this is really basic, but Im still not sure about counting territory.

Ive had some go books for my birthday and whilst they look good, (some are a bit advanced as yet,) none appear to clarify scoring for me.

Am I counting squares or liberties (or neither!) when the game is finished?

Sorry its such an obvious question, but I am starting right at the beginning of my Go career.

Regards

Mark
Author:  emeraldemon [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: scoring-counting Territory
Don't worry, it's not obvious at first. There are two methods of counting, they are mostly similar, but in the beginning, I recommend area counting. In area you counting you count all your stones on the board, and all the empty intersections you have surrounded. The score is the sum of those things. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Final position
$$ -----------
$$ | . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X X |
$$ | O X X X O |
$$ | O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . |
$$ -----------[/go]


In the above game, black has 13 points and white has 12. The other method of counting, is to keep track of how many prisoners you've captured over the course of the game. Then you count just the empty intersections you've surrounded, and subtract off how many prisoners you've lost. In the diagram above, if each player had captured 1 prisoner, the score would be black 5, white 4. Usually the results will be the same either way, but for some subtle reasons I think area scoring is better for beginners.

Also look at this page
http://senseis.xmp.net/?BasicRulesOfGo
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: scoring-counting Territory
In Area Scoring you have to count much more and do an extra step to make a sum, how can that be better? =o

I recommend to just count the empty intersections.

Example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Finished Game
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . O O O . O X X X |
$$ | O O X X O O O O O |
$$ | O X . X X X O O . |
$$ | O X X . . . X O O |
$$ | O O O X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Counting
$$ ------------------
$$ | S T S T S O X X . |
$$ | S T S T S O X . X |
$$ | T O O O T O X X X |
$$ | O O X X O O O O O |
$$ | O X . X X X O O M |
$$ | O X X . . . X O O |
$$ | O O O X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]


Now, counting for White is easiest (in my opinion), when you always count in pairs of two but regard this as one point (obviously the result won't change if you stick to this counting method for both sides).
So you start with the squares on the top left side and count one, then the triangles next to them as two (1+1) and so on.
Here in this example there is one last point for White on the right side (x), so this is .5 points. Now do the same with the Black area and you have your result.

I hope, I could make myself clear ^^
Author:  Li Kao [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: scoring-counting Territory
SoDesuNe wrote:
In Area Scoring you have to count much more and do an extra step to make a sum, how can that be better? =o

You don't need to count more. You can just use a pass button and count like with territory-scoring. And the big advantage is that if you don't agree with your opponent about life&death you can just continue playing whereas with territory scoring you need to talk your opponent into submission.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: scoring-counting Territory
I also think that, if you do not have experienced players to help you, starting out by learning area scoring is easier for beginners. :) As has been said, you count both stones and territory as area.

Here is an example game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 1 to 10
$$ ----------
$$ | . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 7 . . |
$$ | . 2 1 6 . |
$$ | 9 3 4 , . |
$$ | . 8 . 0 . |
$$ -----------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 11 to 14
$$ ----------
$$ | . . . 3 . |
$$ | . X X 1 2 |
$$ | . O X O . |
$$ | X X O , 4 |
$$ | . O . O . |
$$ -----------[/go]


At this point, experienced players can count the territory score. Black wins by 4 points. But that may not be clear to beginners, who can play on.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 15 to 19
$$ ----------
$$ | . . . X 5 |
$$ | . X X X O |
$$ | 7 W X O 6 |
$$ | X X O , O |
$$ | 9 O 8 O . |
$$ -----------[/go]


At this point, experienced players can count by either method. (Note that the :wc: stone has been removed.) Black has 15 points of area and White has 10. Black wins by 5 points.

But suppose that White tries to throw in a monkey wrench by playing inside Black's territory.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Moves 20 to 23
$$ -----------
$$ | 4 1 2 X X |
$$ | . X X X O |
$$ | X . X O O |
$$ | X X O , O |
$$ | X O O O . |
$$ -----------[/go]


:w3: = pass

White throws in a play at :w1:, but Black captures that stone in two plays.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W End position
$$ ------------
$$ | X . X X X |
$$ | . X X X O |
$$ | X . X O O |
$$ | X X O , O |
$$ | X O O O . |
$$ ------------[/go]


Black has the same 15 points and White has the same 10 points. Black still wins by 5 points. :)

Es claro?
Author:  emeraldemon [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: scoring-counting Territory
Well, the difference is that I think disputes over life and death are much more common in beginner games. Say your board looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Finished Game
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . X O . O X X . |
$$ | X X X O . O X . X |
$$ | . O O O . O X X X |
$$ | O O X X O O O O O |
$$ | O X . X X X O O . |
$$ | O X X . . . X O O |
$$ | O O O X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]


If both players agree that the upper left stones are dead, no problem. But what if they disagree? In area scoring, white plays like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 2 & 4 = pass
$$ ------------------
$$ | 3 5 X O . O X X . |
$$ | X X X O . O X . X |
$$ | 1 O O O . O X X X |
$$ | O O X X O O O O O |
$$ | O X . X X X O O . |
$$ | O X X . . . X O O |
$$ | O O O X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Now we count
$$ ------------------
$$ | O O . O . O X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X |
$$ | O O O O . O X X X |
$$ | O O X X O O O O O |
$$ | O X . X X X O O . |
$$ | O X X . . . X O O |
$$ | O O O X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]


After removing the stones, the game can be counted and the score hasn't changed. But in territory scoring, white lost 3 points this way, filling in 3 of her own territory. The correct thing at this point would be to roll the game back, taking back the 3 moves, and then remove the prisoners without the unnecessary plays. But that adds a whole other phase to play, making the game more difficult for beginners, I think.

AGA rules with pass stones (and some other more obscure rule variants) allow for territory counting while still letting disputes be played out, but I wasn't going to get into that :)

By the way markeemark, I forgot to welcome you to the forum and to go! I think you will enjoy it, and small differences aside, scoring is pretty straightforward once you've played a few games.

p.s. Bill, your small board game shows up on the full 19x19, is there a way to fix it?
Author:  Apoah [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: scoring-counting Territory
Couldn't white just pass and let black prove that he is alive?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Finished Game
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . X O . O X X . |
$$ | X X X O . O X . X |
$$ | . O O O . O X X X |
$$ | O O X X O O O O O |
$$ | O X . X X X O O . |
$$ | O X X . . . X O O |
$$ | O O O X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]
Author:  Redundant [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: scoring-counting Territory
Apoah wrote:
Couldn't white just pass and let black prove that he is alive?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Finished Game
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . X O . O X X . |
$$ | X X X O . O X . X |
$$ | . O O O . O X X X |
$$ | O O X X O O O O O |
$$ | O X . X X X O O . |
$$ | O X X . . . X O O |
$$ | O O O X . . X X O |
$$ | X X X X . . . X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]


Black then says, "So capture me."

Life is defined as not-death (i.e. not capable of being captured). So you can't ask someone to prove a negative.
Author:  Apoah [ Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: scoring-counting Territory
Let me rephrase then:

Couldn't white just ask "Where is your 2nd eye?

:)
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: scoring-counting Territory
Apoah wrote:
Let me rephrase then:

Couldn't white just ask "Where is your 2nd eye?

:)


Well, there's one eye at A9, and the other is at B9. Duh! :mrgreen:
Author:  Li Kao [ Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: scoring-counting Territory
Apoah wrote:
Let me rephrase then:

Couldn't white just ask "Where is your 2nd eye?

:)

And if black insists that it's a seki he doesn't need a second eye. I think most life&death disputes I had involve one party claiming that it's a seki. I even once convinced my opponent that my status assessment was right only to notice after the game that he was right.
Author:  markeemark [ Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: scoring-counting Territory
Thank all

That makes it a lot clearer.

and thanks fot the warm welcome. Shame some of you aint local!! I coukd do with some live play to really cement my learning!

Nice community on here.

Ive asked santa (actually my wife!) for a go set for Christmas, she said whats that!!

I ask you (: catch up soon

Markeemark
Author:  yoyoma [ Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: scoring-counting Territory
Li Kao wrote:
I think most life&death disputes I had involve one party claiming that it's a seki. I even once convinced my opponent that my status assessment was right only to notice after the game that he was right.


You're very strong at the post-dame stage of the game Li Kao! :lol:
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