Life In 19x19 :: How to respond to this attack?

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How to respond to this attack? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3854	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Inkwolf [ Fri May 13, 2011 10:49 am ]
Post subject:	How to respond to this attack?
Again and again, I lose what looks like mostly secure territory when the evil computer sneaks around the edge and makes a one-point jump. All my attempts at defense cause more damage. The only remedy I've found so far is to chase them to the corner, losing two lines of territory... Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X \| $$ \| . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X \| $$ \| . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . a b \| $$ \| . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . c X \| $$ \| . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . d e \| $$ \| . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . f g \| $$ \| . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] If I play at a, they connect at b. If I play at c they keep running south. If I make any attempt to head them off at d, f or g, they move away from the edge and grab territory in the corner. If I play c, then f, and block their escape attempts, I end up with an indefensible diagonal, and the edge stone is put in atari on the next move. Thanks for any advice!

Author:	robinz [ Fri May 13, 2011 10:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How to respond to this attack?
I think you just need to try not to let your opponent make this one-point jump. I'll let the experts (well, better players than me anyway, which is most of this forum ) debate the best way to limit the damage at this point, but a fair bit of damage is pretty inevitable by now. Once black has turned on the edge then "c" is the standard defensive move - and even then black can make some reasonable gains in sente. Better still is not to allow them to turn at all (although sometimes of course this is inevitable).

Author:	Solomon [ Fri May 13, 2011 11:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How to respond to this attack?
You have to block from some distance in this situation. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X \| $$ \| . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X \| $$ \| . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X \| $$ \| . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 1 . \| $$ \| . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Author: Joaz Banbeck [ Fri May 13, 2011 11:21 am ]

Post subject: Re: How to respond to this attack?

I think that the relevant question may lie further back.

I'd want to know why, in the following position, you did not reply with 'b' when it played 'a'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O a | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . b | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Or maybe we should go back to a slightly different position, as below, and ask why you are not playing 'b' there.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X a . | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O b . | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

In other words, you may be having trouble with what is known a 'monkey jump'. There are several pages on it at SL, such as http://senseis.xmp.net/?MonkeyJump

Author: daniel_the_smith [ Fri May 13, 2011 11:25 am ]

Post subject: Re: How to respond to this attack?

Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this!"
Doctor: "Well, stop doing that then!"

Seriously, the only right answer is, don't let that happen in the first place. The mistake already happened; everything from this time on is damage control.

Better would have been:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B You need a really good reason to play something other than 2. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X 3 | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O 1 | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . 2 | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . 4 . | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B And if this is how it started, 2 is the answer. Still, you should have answered the circled stone. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X B | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O 1 | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . 6 5 7 | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . 2 3 | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , 8 . 4 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	Dusk Eagle [ Fri May 13, 2011 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to respond to this attack?
Yes, I struggled with these types of invasions when I was first learning the game. Then I got really good at using them on my father, which caused him to stop playing . But eventually as the shapes get more familiar you get better at preventing these invasions in the first place. Also, if you haven't found it yet, be sure to check out Sensei's Library. There's a lot of good material there for beginners.

Author:	daniel_the_smith [ Fri May 13, 2011 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to respond to this attack?
Yeah, this is why I always recommend people do some learning on a 9x9. It's incredibly frustrating to have an entire game more or less ruined by a little mistake like this. 9x9 is smaller, so it hurts a little less-- although there's still enough pain to cause it to sink in after a while...

Author:	Kirby [ Fri May 13, 2011 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to respond to this attack?
Dusk Eagle wrote: Yes, I struggled with these types of invasions when I was first learning the game. Then I got really good at using them on my father, which caused him to stop playing . But eventually as the shapes get more familiar you get better at preventing these invasions in the first place. Also, if you haven't found it yet, be sure to check out Sensei's Library. There's a lot of good material there for beginners. It's cool that your father play(s/ed) go.

Author:	Dusk Eagle [ Fri May 13, 2011 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to respond to this attack?
He tried to learn at the same time I was learning, but gave it up before getting too far, saying something to the effect of his brain not being malleable enough at his age to understand the game.

Author: Kirby [ Fri May 13, 2011 12:50 pm ]

Post subject: Re: How to respond to this attack?

I think the others are correct that you should try to avoid the situation in the first place. But if you did get into the situation, I think that Araban's answer is good:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 1 . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

It might be useful to try to think of how to come up with this move. I think you need to read, incrementally, different possible moves to play until you find a "safe" one.

First you can start of thinking about how to respond very closely:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . 1 C | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

As you've observed, black can just connect at the marked spot, and you haven't accomplished much in terms of defense.

Then you can try considering one move further back:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . 1 X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Think of what black can do. You've probably noticed in this situation that black can keep running south:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . 1 X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . 2 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . 1 X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . 2 . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

So then try one move south once again:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . 1 . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

What can black do?

Well, what if he tries to go south?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . 1 2 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Now, it's hard to block without letting him go south, again. If you aggressively block, he can cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . 1 2 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 4 3 | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Well, that doesn't work well. What if you try to keep going south along with him?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . 1 2 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 3 4 | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Same problem. He keeps going south, and you can't cut him off.

So consider going one space further south, once again:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 1 . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Well, now there's more space for him to do stuff in the marked area:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . C C . | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . C C X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . C C | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 1 . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

But at least you've cut him off from going "further south":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . 4 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 1 2 | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . 5 3 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

---

So, of course, it's best to avoid these situations altogether as others have said. But when you are in this situation, you must read.

Think of the most aggressive defense first. Does that work? If not, pull back a little, and read again. Does that work? If not, pull back a little, and read again.

Do this until you find a solution that works.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri May 13, 2011 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to respond to this attack?
Why am I seeing no diagrams in this thread?

Author:	Inkwolf [ Fri May 13, 2011 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to respond to this attack?
Wow, thanks for all the great answers, guys! I will try to watch my edges and not let the computer lure me into neglecting it to grab an easy capture or win a ko fight. Lots of great solutions to try, and Kirby, you gave me lots to think about. (Daniel, I started on 9x9 a month or so ago, and now play mostly 13x13, but am trying to graduate to full size, now that I can occasionally win. Usually, though, I'm just running around plugging holes in my defense like the Three Stooges in a leaky rowboat.)

Author:	Kirby [ Fri May 13, 2011 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to respond to this attack?
Bill Spight wrote: Why am I seeing no diagrams in this thread? What web browser are you using? If there's a problem with the diagrams, I can investigate it, provided I can reproduce the issue.

Author:	daniel_the_smith [ Fri May 13, 2011 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to respond to this attack?
Inkwolf wrote: (Daniel, I started on 9x9 a month or so ago, and now play mostly 13x13, but am trying to graduate to full size, now that I can occasionally win. Usually, though, I'm just running around plugging holes in my defense like the Three Stooges in a leaky rowboat.) Getting stronger is mostly just finding more holes sooner.

Author:	hyperpape [ Fri May 13, 2011 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to respond to this attack?
Inkwolf wrote: Wow, thanks for all the great answers, guys! I will try to watch my edges and not let the computer lure me into neglecting it to grab an easy capture or win a ko fight. Lots of great solutions to try, and Kirby, you gave me lots to think about. (Daniel, I started on 9x9 a month or so ago, and now play mostly 13x13, but am trying to graduate to full size, now that I can occasionally win. Usually, though, I'm just running around plugging holes in my defense like the Three Stooges in a leaky rowboat.) Well, if the ko is for the life of a group, you probably should let a move like this slide. If you're just talking about capturing a stone or two, then you should block.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri May 13, 2011 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to respond to this attack?
Kirby wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Why am I seeing no diagrams in this thread? What web browser are you using? If there's a problem with the diagrams, I can investigate it, provided I can reproduce the issue. Thanks, Kirby! Local problem solved.

Author: Joaz Banbeck [ Fri May 13, 2011 9:01 pm ]

Post subject: Re: How to respond to this attack?

Kirby wrote:

I think the others are correct that you should try to avoid the situation in the first place. But if you did get into the situation, I think that Araban's answer is good:...

But at least you've cut him off from going "further south":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . 4 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 1 2 | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . 5 3 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

...

I'm not sure that even Araban's defense is adequate, at least not from the most recent diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . 2 3 | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . 1 4 X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . 8 6 5 X | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . 7 O X | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . 9 O O | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

My current favorite for minimizing loss is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X | $$ | . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . 1 2 | $$ | . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . 7 6 X | $$ | . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . 3 4 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 5 8 | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . 9 0 | $$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . a . | $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Can anyone else do better?

Note to OP: I think that Kirby's "back up until you can build a defence" theory does have merit, even if it does not generate optimal play in this particular situation.

Author:	Solomon [ Fri May 13, 2011 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to respond to this attack?
Joaz Banbeck wrote: Kirby wrote: I think the others are correct that you should try to avoid the situation in the first place. But if you did get into the situation, I think that Araban's answer is good:... But at least you've cut him off from going "further south": Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X \| $$ \| . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X \| $$ \| . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X \| $$ \| . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . 4 \| $$ \| . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 1 2 \| $$ \| . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . 5 3 \| $$ \| . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ --------------------------------------[/go] ... I'm not sure that even Araban's defense is adequate, at least not from the most recent diagram: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X \| $$ \| . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X \| $$ \| . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . 2 3 \| $$ \| . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . 1 4 X \| $$ \| . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . 8 6 5 X \| $$ \| . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . 7 O X \| $$ \| . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . 9 O O \| $$ \| . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ --------------------------------------[/go] My current favorite for minimizing loss is this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X \| $$ \| . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X \| $$ \| . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . 1 2 \| $$ \| . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . 7 6 X \| $$ \| . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . 3 4 \| $$ \| . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 5 8 \| $$ \| . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . 9 0 \| $$ \| . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . a . \| $$ --------------------------------------[/go] Can anyone else do better? Note to OP: I think that Kirby's "back up until you can build a defence" theory does have merit, even if it does not generate optimal play in this particular situation. Don't think yours is not any better: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X \| $$ \| . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X \| $$ \| . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . 5 6 \| $$ \| . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . 9 8 X \| $$ \| . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . 3 4 \| $$ \| . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 1 2 \| $$ \| . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . 7 0 \| $$ \| . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	Dusk Eagle [ Sat May 14, 2011 5:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How to respond to this attack?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X \| $$ \| . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X \| $$ \| . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X \| $$ \| . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . . 4 \| $$ \| . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 1 2 \| $$ \| . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . 5 . 3 \| $$ \| . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ --------------------------------------[/go] How about this?

Author:	Kirby [ Sat May 14, 2011 7:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How to respond to this attack?
I think that the that is found by incrementally moving back is correct, but maybe my followup defense gave black some extra points (though, I would not try to cut off the stone as in Joaz's variation, as it loses the stones). I didn't really think much about that part. I like Dusk Eagle's followup to the best if we can get to that end position, as it looks like it leaves white with the most points. However, black might do this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W $$ ------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . X X X X O O O X X X X \| $$ \| . . . . . . . X O O O O . O . O O O X \| $$ \| . . . . . . X O . . . . . . O . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . X \| $$ \| . . . , . X O . . , . . . . . , . 4 . \| $$ \| . . . . X O O . . . . . . . O . . 1 2 \| $$ \| . . . . X O . . . . O . . . . . . . 3 \| $$ \| . . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ --------------------------------------[/go] So if you don't like this, maybe you can simply go with Araban's followup. Either way, I think that the found by moving incrementally back will work in this situation.

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