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Learning Joseki
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4384		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Boyce [ Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:00 am ]
Post subject:  Learning Joseki
Hello everyone! I had a question about learning joseki. From what I heard memorizing joseki does very little or almost nothing to help you improve or understand more about the game. However, is there a point where you should begin studying joseki? Or can you do just as well without learning any? I'm around 10-11 kyu right now on KGS, and have not taken any time to learn any joseki. I have a book called 38 Basic Joseki, but to be honest I keep hearing "you lose two stones when you learn joseki" (I think thats the proverb someone told me :-? ). But I know studying and trying to understand each move can help. So is this book any good for that? And should I even bother learning joseki at my level or just wait til maybe I get stronger? I appreciate any advice you have on the subject thanks! :D

Boyce
Author:  Mr. Mormon [ Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Joseki
The point of studying joseki is not merely to memorize sequences, but to understand why and when they are good moves to play. I've heard that one's understanding of Go increases in many aspects through this type of study.
Author:  tchan001 [ Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Joseki
Advice from Cho Chikun
http://tchan001.wordpress.com/2011/06/0 ... lculation/
Quote:
Some people pride themselves in being able to remember 200 to 300 joseki sequences. But they don’t realize that not only is it not beneficial, but there is no value in doing so at all. Using your head to memorize the sequence of every move is not the way to progress in go skills. You should understand how both sides can use joseki logic to fight out the corners during the opening stage of a game. And only thus can you grasp the vital point of learning joseki.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Joseki
The quote is probably more like "You lose two stones when you memorize joseki." As Mr. Mormon said, knowing why joseki is joseki will lead you to learn not only the joseki itself, but concepts that you can use in other phases of the game.

Even if you just memorize joseki, there are still useful side effects. If you keep losing in the corners, you are entering the midgame at a disadvantage all the time. This skews your perception of how to play the sides and center, so you learn to play those the wrong way too. Just blind memorization of joseki gives you a chance to learn subsequent play properly.
Author:  Kirby [ Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Joseki
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
...

Even if you just memorize joseki, there are still useful side effects. ...


I really agree with this. I think people just get into the idea that memorization is bad, because some people use the memorization as an excuse not to think during the game.

Just remember to think for yourself while you are playing, and you'll see no negatives of memorizing joseki, I think.
Author:  Boyce [ Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Joseki
I figured that memorizing was the wrong way to study for the most part. Although has you pointed out even it probably has benefits. My question I guess is should I bother learning them now or are they something to learn later? And also I don't plan to just memorize them, I learned that memorization really doesn't do much to really learn a subject in college after my first few tests :-? .

I think I may try to learn a few from this book. It seems to focus on understanding each move and why both players make their moves. The back also says it tries to show how to choose and use different joseki in relation to other stones in the opening. The understanding of why you use different ones in relation to other stones should help me focus more on the whole board which I don't always do very well. Thank you for all the advice. :)

Boyce
Author:  Bantari [ Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Joseki
Here is what I had to say about that a while back. Maybe you will find it of interest.
http://www.bantari.com/go/writings/thought_001.php
Author:  jts [ Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Joseki
If you learn to read, study fundamentals, get a good sense for which groups are strong and which are weak, learn when to tenuki, and so on, you will do well in the opening. And also in the rest of the game. ;)
Author:  Kirby [ Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Joseki
I would suggest studying what you find enjoyable for now.

In terms of efficiency, I think that studying go problems is typically more effective than studying joseki.
Author:  Boyce [ Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Joseki
Well jts has a good point. :) I have been trying to work on those things as well, but I was wondering if studying joseki would be helpful towards learning some of those things. I've always heard avoid studying joseki and so I was wondering 1) when to study them and 2) should I study them at all if all they do is make you weaker (didn't seem like such a good idea to me). Right now I'm going through Volume 3 of the Graded Go Problems for Beginners for a second time.

As to what I find most enjoyable, the opening is my favorite part of the game so I figured joseki would be fun to study. I know tsumego is one of the best ways to improve but sometimes it just gets old and I want to look into different parts of the game.

As to Bantaris post, I really enjoyed the article. And reading it has kind of made me want to jump into really understanding and studying joseki in the sense of their strengths, and weaknesses, and the reasons behind each move. I may look through this book and maybe learn a few but not focus on memorizing so much as understanding the whys behind the moves. I'm in kind of slump anyway so might as well choose now as a time to get weaker if its going to happen ;-) .

Boyce
Author:  Xyiana [ Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Joseki
According to my own experience, you need only basic star josekis knowledge even in 5-8 kyu level area.
Better spend your valuable time to other areas of go, like shapes, haengma, basic invasions/reductions. At least for me those parts were at that time much more fun than serious joseki study.
Author:  Mr. Mormon [ Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Learning Joseki
Kirby wrote:
I would suggest studying what you find enjoyable for now.
But also keep in mind that what's most enjoyable to study and/or put into practice is not necessarily what needs the most improvement in one's game[citation needed].
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