Life In 19x19
http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Studying tsumego as a way to improve
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4396		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Signifier [ Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Studying tsumego as a way to improve
Hi all- so I've recently fallen in love with go, and I'd like to become stronger. My question here is about tsumego.

I know a lot of people say life & death problems are really important for becoming stronger. My issue is actual life and death problems at my level don't give me too much trouble. For instance, I am working through Yoshinori's "Graded Go Problems for Beginners" which I really like. Most of the life & death problems (in volumes 1 and 2 at least) I can solve fairly easily: it's the other kind of problems that give me headaches.

The problems that are tough are ones like "Where is the invasion point in black's position?" or the "How to Play in the Opening" type problems. All of these problems which aren't specifically "Black to live" or "White to kill black" or "Black to get seki" etc., give me trouble. For instance, for anyone with the books, in Volume 2, problem #151 or #193 I am at a loss, whereas for problem #159 or #224 for instance I know where to put my stones.

I think a lot of my weakness has to do with being clueless on these non-life&death type problems. After all, the life & death situations don't really arise until you "play to their existence." It's those preceding, and surrounding, moves that I am really bad at.

I was wondering if anyone had specific suggestions for becoming stronger for these kinds of problems and game situations.
Author:  Hushfield [ Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying tsumego as a way to improve
Hi signifier, I think you should treat these go problems not as actual positions which you can just read out, but more as a test of some theoretical knowledge. Opening problems often test your knowledge of joseki (choosing the right one with regards to the whole board situation) or direction of play. The same goes for many invasion problems. They often involve playing at a certain shape point, which you will come to recognize instantly after having seen it multiple times before. Perhaps you should think of these problems (and their answers) not so much as reading problems, but as very concise lectures, and if you can't figure out the answer, just look at the solution, and compare it with your knowledge of e.g. opening principles. When I started out, I read "Opening theory made easy", by otake hideo, and "In the beginning" by ishigure ikuro, and the general principles and few joseki I learned from those two books were enough to either solve the problems or at least understand why a certain move was the correct answer.

You will get better at these problems as you: a) study the opening, b) play more games and start recognising shapes, c) look at the answers of similar problems (or even the same one) and encounter it again.

If you say you're bad at the preceding moves, just playing more games, while paying close attention to some fundamental principles like cutting and connecting (don't let your own stones get cut off, try to surround your opponent's stones) will make this more natural.
Author:  malweth [ Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying tsumego as a way to improve
You didn't say, so I'm assuming you're high DDK. (>15k or so)

If you like to do tsumego, do tsumego.
If you aren't fond of them, concentrate on doing very easy tsumego very quickly - at your rank there are other things that will make you stronger more quickly.

By very easy tsumego I mean problems such as the vital points of big eyes, false eyes in various positions, and most other problems that have single stone "answers." For example, the Korean Academy problems on GoBase (levels 1, possibly level 2). What's important is to be able to see all sorts of vital points by second nature. This will immediately help in your games and help you later when you study more difficult tsumego.

IMHO, tsumego becomes more important after ~12k and even more so after 8k or 5k. I found that, at a certain point, reading will "click" and you'll actually start. Prior to that point you're not actually reading, just evaluating. For me this happened around 8k and took me to 3k quickly.
Author:  Mef [ Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying tsumego as a way to improve
Signifier wrote:
The problems that are tough are ones like "Where is the invasion point in black's position?"




Good advice from those above, for some food for thought -- Once you're used to life and death problems, and start to recognize which shapes look "living" and which look "dead", that can start to play a role in problems like these. For instance "where's the invasion point?" Is really a fancy way of saying "How can white set up a position where he can live?" As you're trying to evaluate places you can try to picture sequences and decide if it looks like something that should live, or something you could kill. Likewise, often a large point to play is one where you can attack your opponent (threaten to kill). Knowing which shapes are already alive, and which ones you can still threaten to kill plays a big role in how you will want to proceed. Tsumego help provide the very basis for a lot of strategic decisions later. If the problems seem tougher, it's probably because they are (= often when you get down to it, there is an added layer (not just life vs. death, but the implications of life vs. death). Also you may want to make sure that when you are comparing problems, they are problems intended for players of the same level (and not comparing a 10k tsumego problem with a 3k opening problem, etc). Good luck with your studies!
Author:  Bill Spight [ Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying tsumego as a way to improve
Signifier wrote:
Hi all- so I've recently fallen in love with go, and I'd like to become stronger. My question here is about tsumego.

I know a lot of people say life & death problems are really important for becoming stronger. My issue is actual life and death problems at my level don't give me too much trouble. For instance, I am working through Yoshinori's "Graded Go Problems for Beginners" which I really like. Most of the life & death problems (in volumes 1 and 2 at least) I can solve fairly easily: it's the other kind of problems that give me headaches.

The problems that are tough are ones like "Where is the invasion point in black's position?" or the "How to Play in the Opening" type problems. All of these problems which aren't specifically "Black to live" or "White to kill black" or "Black to get seki" etc., give me trouble. For instance, for anyone with the books, in Volume 2, problem #151 or #193 I am at a loss, whereas for problem #159 or #224 for instance I know where to put my stones.

I think a lot of my weakness has to do with being clueless on these non-life&death type problems. After all, the life & death situations don't really arise until you "play to their existence." It's those preceding, and surrounding, moves that I am really bad at.

I was wondering if anyone had specific suggestions for becoming stronger for these kinds of problems and game situations.


First, let me encourage you in your tsumego study. It is obvious that you should be working on harder tsumego problems. Don't hold back because of your "level".

Second, since the explanations for the other problems are not very helpful to you, I would suggest a couple of things. First, get a teacher who can explain things to you in person. Second, study pro games, even if they are not commented. Not only will you see pro play, but often -- not always! -- reasons for their early play will be revealed by later play.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying tsumego as a way to improve
Mef wrote:
Signifier wrote:
The problems that are tough are ones like "Where is the invasion point in black's position?"




Good advice from those above, for some food for thought -- Once you're used to life and death problems, and start to recognize which shapes look "living" and which look "dead", that can start to play a role in problems like these. For instance "where's the invasion point?" Is really a fancy way of saying "How can white set up a position where he can live?"


Or, how can White set up a position that he can sacrifice? :)
Author:  Joelnelsonb [ Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying tsumego as a way to improve
Also, gaining skill at tsumego will mean getting stronger at play "under the stones" as its called. Playing stones within your opponents groups to strategically use up the vital points in the proper order. As you improve on this, you'll begin to think about it even when you're making the global position moves that you describe. You'll learn to recognize what a weak shape (a group with insufficient vital points) looks like and how to force your opponent into them from a distance.
Author:  Uberdude [ Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying tsumego as a way to improve
Joelnelsonb wrote:
Also, gaining skill at tsumego will mean getting stronger at play "under the stones" as its called. Playing stones within your opponents groups to strategically use up the vital points in the proper order.

That's not what "under the stones" means. Under the stones is when you play in a place vacated by some of your captured stones, though tends (only?) to refer to cases more fancy than simple making of false eyes but when several of your stones are captured on the edge but then you capture the capturing stones due to a cutting point left behind:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to kill
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X X X . . X . .
$$ | O O O O X X . . .
$$ | . O X X O O X X .
$$ | . O O X . . O X .
$$ +------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black sacrifices 4 stones to make white capture a shape which leaves a cutting point
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X X X . . X . .
$$ | O O O O X X . . .
$$ | . O X X O O X X .
$$ | . O O X 1 2 O X .
$$ +------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black recaptures with 3 "under the stones"
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | X X X X . . X . .
$$ | O O O O X X . . .
$$ | . O . 3 O O X X .
$$ | . O O . . O O X .
$$ +------------------[/go]
Author:  Joelnelsonb [ Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying tsumego as a way to improve
I'm not certain where we are at odds. I agree with what you say but I don't know what I said that implied anything else. The example you give is exactly what I was referring to when I mentioned using up vital points.
Author:  Uberdude [ Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying tsumego as a way to improve
Joelnelsonb wrote:
Playing stones within your opponents groups to strategically use up the vital points in the proper order.

You said nothing about playing underneath your own captured stones, which is the essential aspect of playing 'under the stones'.

The following classic way to kill an L group satisfies your description of "Playing stones within your opponents groups to strategically use up the vital points in the proper order." but is not an under the stones sequence because it is not playing stones underneath your captured ones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +----------------
$$ | . 1 5 4 . . . .
$$ | 2 6 . X O . O .
$$ | 3 X X X O . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
Author:  Boidhre [ Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying tsumego as a way to improve
Joelnelsonb wrote:
I'm not certain where we are at odds. I agree with what you say but I don't know what I said that implied anything else. The example you give is exactly what I was referring to when I mentioned using up vital points.


"Under the stones" just has a specific meaning. It's like how it's best for clarity to avoid using words like thick, thin, light or heavy in their natural English sense when talking about stones on the board. Even if it might make intuitive sense to some people to think of a single line of stones as thin and a wide clump of stones as thick.
Author:  Joelnelsonb [ Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying tsumego as a way to improve
Nonetheless, I believe my point is still valid. As you improve at tsumego, you begin to think about it more when you're making those big, global-type moves. You're thinking about making the right threats such that if your opponent doesn't respond a certain way, you can force him into a dead shape. This is true for me anyways.
Author:  Boidhre [ Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Studying tsumego as a way to improve
Joelnelsonb wrote:
Nonetheless, I believe my point is still valid. As you improve at tsumego, you begin to think about it more when you're making those big, global-type moves. You're thinking about making the right threats such that if your opponent doesn't respond a certain way, you can force him into a dead shape. This is true for me anyways.


I think if you replace "as you improve at tsumego" with "as your reading improves" you have a point. Tsuemgo is a good way of improving reading in my opinion and experience but far from the only way.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/