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| When to resign? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4602 |
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| Author: | tezza [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | When to resign? |
Hi all, When is a good time to resign a game? The obvious answer is ‘when you’re losing’. But then if my opponent has given me the courtesy by playing, shouldn’t I return the courtesy by trying to make it a good game? (I realize this may be ‘old school’ thinking, circa Kawabata's Master of Go). On the other hand, I wonder if I'm wasting the other player's time. Sometimes I see I’ve already lost a game after the opening (I'm in one such game now, sigh). Any thoughts? Also from fellow beginners? Cheers tezza |
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| Author: | jts [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
Tell you what: why don't you start a journal in the study section. In every game, try to count the score at the beginning and at the end of middlegame. Once you've done that in a dozen or so games, see how far off your worst guess was. After that, you can resign once you're sure that you're behind by more than that amount, and there's no way to come back. Or you can just play as long as you're having fun 
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| Author: | xed_over [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
tezza wrote: When is a good time to resign a game? when your opponent replies to your move by playing on the 1-2 point. seriously, there's no hard and fast rule. Some pros will play out a huge loss, while others will resign when only one point behind. |
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| Author: | Suji [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
tezza wrote: Hi all, When is a good time to resign a game? The obvious answer is ‘when you’re losing’. But then if my opponent has given me the courtesy by playing, shouldn’t I return the courtesy by trying to make it a good game? (I realize this may be ‘old school’ thinking, circa Kawabata's Master of Go). On the other hand, I wonder if I'm wasting the other player's time. Sometimes I see I’ve already lost a game after the opening (I'm in one such game now, sigh). Any thoughts? Also from fellow beginners? Cheers tezza Sometimes I get frustrated with an opponent who plays out an obvious loss. While ahead, I think that if you are losing with no hope of recovering the game you should resign. But, when behind, I think that I might get a break and that my opponent may make some mistakes, as I do in fact play some games out to completion. I don't resign every game that I'm losing. I know this is off topic, but I have a friend that I play Wordfeud with and she refuses to resign if she's losing since she's having fun. This has taught me a lesson in the past two weeks. It has taught me to focus on the game and not what I think she should be doing (i.e. resigning). It's not fun to learn like that, but it's been a good learning experience. I personally think that you should resign either when it is completely inevitable OR when you're not having fun anymore. So, if you're having fun, you might as well keep playing. |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
If you don't know that you don't have a shot at winning, don't resign. Honestly, at the ~24k level, this advice can be shortened to "never, ever resign." Too many mistakes are made in 20k+ games for it to be worth resigning, as either player could blow their lead at any time if they miss something. In addition, at least when I was 20k, I could be up 80 points and not have a clue whether I was winning or losing. On top of that, the experience you get at playing endgame is valuable no matter what the score is at your level. So my advice is don't resign until you're stronger and have a bit more of a feel for who's winning. |
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| Author: | jts [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
xed_over wrote: tezza wrote: When is a good time to resign a game? when your opponent replies to your move by playing on the 1-2 point. Alternatively, you may be on the verge of killing his corner, so I wouldn't resign then, either. |
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| Author: | ACGalaga [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
Yeah, rather than resigning, I try to loose by as little as I can... which is often still a lot. Sorry if I upset anyone by playing out my games. (^_^;) Still learning~~ |
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| Author: | Suji [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
ACGalaga wrote: Yeah, rather than resigning, I try to loose by as little as I can... which is often still a lot. Sorry if I upset anyone by playing out my games. (^_^;) Still learning~~ That's a good idea. You might pull of an upset or two doing this. |
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| Author: | tezza [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
Hi, @jts. Like your idea about a score estimate during the game. For the game I’m currently losing, I estimate by ~40 points. Let’s see how I do. @xed_over. Re: playing out a huge loss, guess it comes back to jts and suji’s point that if I’m having fun I should continue playing. @suji. Enjoyed the example of your Wordfued friend. Makes sense. @ Dusk Eagle. “Never, ever resign” at beginner level as either player could win. Yes. Also there is the experience of learning from the endgame. I’m taking your points on board. To future opponents, I like to join ACGalaga’s “Sorry if I upset anyone by playing out my games. Still learning”. Cheers tezza |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
Beginners should never resign. You have too much to learn to be able to assess your winning chances -- or your opponent's losing chances. Besides, you should develop your will to win. I won a game the other day. Afterwards my opponent said that after he had won the capturing race he thought that he had won the game. 
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
Lately, I have been telling myself, 'Don't resign if either player has a weak group. That means things are still too up in the air'. But otherwise yeah, if I can tell that I'm 30+ behind, I might resign. I resign too easily, and am trying to work on it. My estimation/counting is so bad that it is entirely unreliable, so my pessimism tends to dictate things. |
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| Author: | Inkwolf [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
It seems impossible to make a hard and fast rule. A couple of times I resigned because I thought I should (getting slaughtered, no more hope, didn't want to waste my opponent's time) and my opponent seemed really disappointed, and sometimes surprised. Other times I haven't resigned, and my opponent seemed annoyed and frustrated. For myself, I also often am disappointed if someone resigns when I was enjoying countering their moves. If the game is exciting and fun, the score seems completely unimportant until the end. Other people kept on playing a losing game long after I found them boring and annoying. What's the difference? No idea. If you're a noob playing another noob, I don't think either should resign. Win or lose, we're all getting practice. If one player is much higher ranked, then it's really up to your preference and judgement. In those cases, sometimes, 'Can I win?' becomes moot, and the question changes to "How close can I make this loss?" or even "Can I make ANY living groups at all?" On those occasions, some of my opponents have become restless, others have been very patient and supportive, or even amused. It's surprising how you can read someone's emotions through their gameplay sometimes. If you are the one who asked them for a game, and they agreed to play you, then it's probably more polite to resign if you suspect they're bored. If they came to you or picked up your game challenge from the board, then it's their own fault if they don't find your game interesting. In either case, they knew they were taking on a noob when they started, so they really have little cause to complain if you play to the bitter end. Just my opinion. |
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| Author: | tezza [ Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
Hi, Thank you all for your views. If I may summarize:
For games between beginners (20k+), "never resign" (Dusk Eagle, Bill Spight, Inkwolf), Especially if we’re having fun (jts, suji, Inkwolf), or learning (Bill Spight). We can try "to lose by as little as we can" (ACGalaga) to see "how close can we make it" (Inkwolf), And to keep playing when "either player has a weak group" (Chew terr) Coming back to the losing game I mentioned earlier (24k vs 24k, I played White, system-allocated komi: 4), as jts suggested I estimated the loss margin throughout the game: • After my misplayed opening, allowing Black to take a really big point, I was down ~40 points. • By the middle game, I estimated the margin was down to ~30. • By the endgame, it was ~10. • But I still lost the game. By 2 points  !Still, I had fun trying to come back from behind! So jts, Dusk Eagle, and Bill Spight, you're right about beginners (me) having much to learn about assessing chances. Thanks. Cheers, tezza |
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| Author: | illluck [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
Just an aside - there's almost no way for you to fall behind by 40 points in the opening, especially from only allowing the opponent to take a big point. Sometimes opening moves are not as big as they look :p |
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| Author: | Li Kao [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
illluck wrote: Just an aside - there's almost no way for you to fall behind by 40 points in the opening, especially from only allowing the opponent to take a big point. Sometimes opening moves are not as big as they look :p It's pretty easy. Just totally lose a corner fight. Happened to me or my opponents a lot until a few stones ago. |
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| Author: | snorri [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
It's amazing what you can learn by not resigning if you are used to always resigning when things look pretty grim. One way to think about it is: if you are getting totally dominated by a player who is supposedly your own level, maybe there's a reason this player is not rated higher. Maybe he/she throws a lot of games in the endgame. There are an awful lot of players who aren't good at winning won games. They miss things when the liberties get short, or they just get tired and careless and don't have the endurance to play a long game. Maybe they get greedy when they are ahead and assume you are pushover. Whatever. If you resign too early against such a player, you're not getting a chance to exploit their biggest weakness. Although I like to think I have reasonable resigning habits, there are some regular opponents I have where I do something different. With them, I've learned to just be patient. 30 points behind going into the endgame in not necessarily fatal against them. 
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
Been waiting for this topic to come up so I could post this game. Start looking at move 282 and the few immediately after it. I play extremely erratically on OGS and gave my opponent several chances... but by 240 or 250 there was really no way for me to lose. |
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| Author: | tezza [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
Hi, Illluck, I concede your point. Still trying to get better at counting. But I must say that, as Li Kao describes, it felt that way after I lost control of the fight in the north-west corner. I then had only two star point stones (west, south-west) versus Black’s four star points in the south and eastern side. It was as if I had given my opponent handicap stones  .Snorri, wow, 30 points down and you still can catch up!  Cheers tezza |
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| Author: | ACGalaga [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
daniel_the_smith wrote: Been waiting for this topic to come up so I could post this game. Start looking at move 282 and the few immediately after it. Ok, I'm dd20somethingK and I can see white lost by that point (unless I'm not seeing everything clearly...). My question is, why did white continue to play after you passed... twice?! Are you using this as a good example of a resignation? I'm not at that level yet, but I probably would have just ended it after you passed the first time. Seemed like a good place to end the game. |
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: When to resign? |
ACGalaga wrote: daniel_the_smith wrote: Been waiting for this topic to come up so I could post this game. Start looking at move 282 and the few immediately after it. Ok, I'm dd20somethingK and I can see white lost by that point (unless I'm not seeing everything clearly...). My question is, why did white continue to play after you passed... twice?! Are you using this as a good example of a resignation? I'm not at that level yet, but I probably would have just ended it after you passed the first time. Seemed like a good place to end the game. It's an example of: * Being way behind and not resigning. * What a hint that you should resign looks like. |
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