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| Friendly Advice Thread! http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4648 |
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| Author: | Loons [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Friendly Advice Thread! |
Any choice pieces of advice you think don't get bandied about *quite* enough? Be it run-of-the-mill or brilliant. Also; kibitz, caveat, critique others' advice. I'll start with: 1) Take care of the super-moyo your opponent is inevitably building before it becomes a big problem/fight. 2) Only play 4-4 stone enclosures when that approach has become your opponent's best next move. |
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| Author: | BaghwanB [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
As pointed out recently: You don't need to kill everything. Getting ahead (esp if in sente is enough). Attacking too hard will leave you weak. Bruce "Yeah, right..." Young |
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| Author: | Loons [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
I read one of Fairbarn's articles where he explained the "amashi" strategy (which you may have only vaguely heard of) is actually to coax your opponent into over-attacking a weak group, ending up with inefficient, "musclebound" shapes and an inferior result (assuming you succeed  ).
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| Author: | Mef [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
We all learn pretty early on that it (eventually) takes at least 6 stones to make a living group in the corner, 8 on the side, and 10 in the middle...but when you think about it, that means that every time you allow yourself to get cut you're potentially committing yourself to 6-10 more moves just to make life for your new group, that's 6-10 more moves that you aren't building, making points, etc. If you're going to let yourself get cut, make sure it's going to be worth it. Likewise, if you have the opportunity to cut your opponent / connect two of your own groups, the reverse situation applies. |
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| Author: | Shaddy [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
I heard some variation on "It's so hard to kill stones" almost every day in China. It's surprising the places you can live in. |
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| Author: | Tsuyoku [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
However badly you do it, count the score at every big decision. Before you resign, count the score. Before you decide whether to invade or reduce, count the score. Before you play a purely defensive gote move, count the score. It matters whether you're behind or not for these decisions. The more you count during your game, the better you get at it, both in speed and accuracy. |
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
Here's one I had pointed out at Congress: "If a move doesn't make points, it might or might not end up doing anything". This seems obvious, and it seems like there are a million exceptions to it. But basically, I had to start asking myself whether moves were likely to become dame for no reason. After that, I started finding more excuses to take moves that got points. That is, after all, how you win. |
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| Author: | jts [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
Chew Terr wrote: Here's one I had pointed out at Congress: "If a move doesn't make points, it might or might not end up doing anything". This seems obvious, and it seems like there are a million exceptions to it. But basically, I had to start asking myself whether moves were likely to become dame for no reason. After that, I started finding more excuses to take moves that got points. That is, after all, how you win. Did they mean specifically territory, or any kind of point-gaining move? If the latter, this seems kind of like a tautology: in go, points are what matter, so if it doesn't make points, it's not doing anything. If the former, it must be a tautology again, balanced on the "might". Any good move that doesn't change the balance of secure territory is changing the balance of potential territory (loosely speaking), so of course that potential might not become actual. |
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| Author: | Solomon [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
Don't be afraid to get yourself in atari, even knowing it can get captured. This is Go, not Capture Go. |
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
jts wrote: Chew Terr wrote: Here's one I had pointed out at Congress: "If a move doesn't make points, it might or might not end up doing anything". This seems obvious, and it seems like there are a million exceptions to it. But basically, I had to start asking myself whether moves were likely to become dame for no reason. After that, I started finding more excuses to take moves that got points. That is, after all, how you win. Did they mean specifically territory, or any kind of point-gaining move? If the latter, this seems kind of like a tautology: in go, points are what matter, so if it doesn't make points, it's not doing anything. If the former, it must be a tautology again, balanced on the "might". Any good move that doesn't change the balance of secure territory is changing the balance of potential territory (loosely speaking), so of course that potential might not become actual. Yes, it may seem obvious/tautological. However, I found myself spending a lot of moves in what became dame later. For example, I would split living groups, or play a lot of moves building a wall that was more or less invalidated before I started building it. That sort of thing. So I was basically telling myself 'If this doesn't actually make territory, consider twice whether or not you have a plan for what it WILL do'. |
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| Author: | jts [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
Chew Terr wrote: Yes, it may seem obvious/tautological. However, I found myself spending a lot of moves in what became dame later. For example, I would split living groups, or play a lot of moves building a wall that was more or less invalidated before I started building it. That sort of thing. So I was basically telling myself 'If this doesn't actually make territory, consider twice whether or not you have a plan for what it WILL do'. I guess... but then, it can be okay if your stones, even an entire wall, ends up as dame, or even as part of an opponent's territory. It depends on what you got in return. "OMG I need to make territory here" ends up in a distinctly low class of game. Bill Spight did a great post on how to use walls, with this lesson. |
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| Author: | Chew Terr [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
jts wrote: I guess... but then, it can be okay if your stones, even an entire wall, ends up as dame, or even as part of an opponent's territory. It depends on what you got in return. "OMG I need to make territory here" ends up in a distinctly low class of game. Bill Spight did a great post on how to use walls, with this lesson. Oh, sure. There's definitely a time and place. I was just in a phase of... forgetting the goal of the whole game, and wondering why I lost. |
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| Author: | gowan [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
If possible, when you make a defensive move make one that does more than just defend. This is part of the general advice to make multipurpose moves, but so often I see players, when they need to play a defensive move (e.g. to protect a gorup under attack) make a move that has no other effect than defending. For example if you need to protect a group play a move that protects but also does something else like leave a big endgame move for later. |
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| Author: | Solomon [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
gowan wrote: For example if you need to protect a group play a move that protects but also does something else like leave a big endgame move for later. The best defense is a good offense. The hand which strikes also blocks.
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| Author: | xed_over [ Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
Araban wrote: gowan wrote: For example if you need to protect a group play a move that protects but also does something else like leave a big endgame move for later. The best defense is a good offense. The hand which strikes also blocks.but the one I always had/have trouble with: close fist before striking |
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| Author: | Loons [ Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
I speculate it may help to relate those attack and defence proverbs to weak groups. Quote: The best defence is a good offence If your opponent attacks your weak group and has a (related) weak group himself, attacking his weak group may be/is often a better idea than trying to run or live directly with your group. Some possible scenarios: You answer his attack directly. The strength he gains hounding your weak group helps his weak group. You attack his weak group in answer. He follows up against your weak group. You follow up against his weak group. You attack his weak group in answer, he defends his weak group. You use this to help your group. And very relatedly- Quote: Close fist before striking Don't start an attack when you have left a weakness that compromises it. |
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
My favorite: Don't go fishing when your house is on fire! |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
 I'm not sure if it's good advice or not, but this has been my motto these days. Too often, I've gotten caught up in the message boards, asking, "What's the optimal way to do X?", "In situation X, how should I respond?", etc. (for various values of X). Theory and proverbs are great, but when it comes down to it, you need experience to win games. So these days, I really try to, "Just do it". I've been playing games almost every day with zero time, 30 seconds per move. With time that fast, yes I make mistakes. Yes, I lose now and then. But I personally feel that it has been helping me not to dwell on the details of a loss, and just move on to the next game. I don't know if it's the best advice, and I may be "re-enforcing bad habits"... But these days, I am trying to "Just do it". |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
jts wrote: Chew Terr wrote: Yes, it may seem obvious/tautological. However, I found myself spending a lot of moves in what became dame later. For example, I would split living groups, or play a lot of moves building a wall that was more or less invalidated before I started building it. That sort of thing. So I was basically telling myself 'If this doesn't actually make territory, consider twice whether or not you have a plan for what it WILL do'. I guess... but then, it can be okay if your stones, even an entire wall, ends up as dame, or even as part of an opponent's territory. It depends on what you got in return. "OMG I need to make territory here" ends up in a distinctly low class of game. Bill Spight did a great post on how to use walls, with this lesson. Personally, I don't see Chew's advice as saying that you can't use walls. I see the benefit in the advice in the fact that it makes you think about the moves you are playing. Play a move for a reason. |
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| Author: | jts [ Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Friendly Advice Thread! |
Kirby wrote: Personally, I don't see Chew's advice as saying that you can't use walls. I see the benefit in the advice in the fact that it makes you think about the moves you are playing. Play a move for a reason. I guess I could accept the advice at the most general level as, "make meaningful moves" or "Have a plan". But I don't think this has anything to do with knowing exactly where your points are going to be. After all, moves that make points can be meaningless too. (As in "that capture looks big, but it's meaningless.") There's a passage in Kageyama's fundamentals that goes "If you can't see that white has got the better of black in this diagram, lay it out on your bedside table and chant 'White's thickness is superior!' when you get up in the morning." I guess if it's helpful to you and Chew, then it's helpful. But I think a lot players (including me) just need to have faith that a thick position with overwhelming influence really is going to give them the territory they need. They just need to bide their time. Opponent invades at 3-3? Just wait. Opponent plays sente yose in the middle game? Just wait. Refuses to finish a joseki but still manages to live? Just wait. It's like a magnetic force permeating the board, tilting everything in your favor. You don't really need a reason to have a wall (so long as it's not overconcentrated or whatever). If you lose your nerve and say "zomg I need points now", all that influence and thickness is for naught. |
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