Life In 19x19
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Beginner needing some direction:
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4936		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Dr Burns [ Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Beginner needing some direction:
I've just started to really get into go and am trying to improve... unsuccessfully it seems.

Reading: "Go! More Than a Game" and the first "So You Want to Play Go? Level 1."

Play: Right now my only "live" opponent is someone I've taught.
The most experience I get is on KGS. Unfortunately online Go and I don't seem to get along. I get very anxious during online play for some reason. Plus it seems I get people who are either drastically worse that are way above my level. I just don't feel like I'm learning anything, other than that I'm horrible at the game.

Anyone have any suggestions to help my sad sad Go?

Thanks and God bless,
Adam
Author:  tezza [ Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
Hi Adam,

One idea may be play online games on both "live game" servers (e.g. KGS) and "turn-based" servers (e.g. Dragon Go Server (DGS), Online Go Server (OGS)).

A turn-based server (TBS) only requires us to make a move every few days. The advantages of TBS games is that (i) lack of the time pressure we beginners feel of making moves quickly (actually, this pressure is more of our own making on “live games”), and (ii) we quickly come across many different playing styles almost simultaneously (on “live games”, it is sequential).

The disadvantages of TBS are several: (i) games may progress very slowly (3-5 months in some cases) :cry: , (ii) we may be caught in ‘analysis paralysis’ – trying to think so much that it paralyses decision making :scratch: ; and (iii) if we have many games going at one time, one bad day could mean making bad moves across many games :shock: (a point daniel_the_smith made to me). TBS players tend to have many games going at once to overcome disadvantage (i).

Hope this helps.

Cheers
tezza
Author:  Dr Burns [ Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
Tezza,

Thanks for the input. I might check out a TBS. I don't get bothered much playing face-to-face, but something about KGS makes me bonkers. It doesn't matter if I'm crushing some poor soul or being ground into ity-bity-tiny-dust myself.


God bless,
Adam
Author:  hyperpape [ Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
You could do worse than playing bots, especially on 9x9.
Author:  jts [ Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
They say not to worry at all about whether you're improving until you've lost 100 games.

I think feeling like you're out-matched/under-matched is common among beginners. Don't worry too much about it.

If you still want to improve faster anyway, some ideas:

(i) Play more :D
(ii) Do life and death problems (for example, search for "Beginner Exercises" in Sensei's Library)
(iii) You can get your game reviewed, and other players will help point out where you can improve. You can ask for a review in several of the rooms in KGS, or you can post a game in the "game analysis" forum here. (Ideally you want to post a game that you put a lot of effort into, that you lost, and that left you unsure why you lost.)
(iv) You can also ask for teaching games. For example, in the Beginner Room on KGS; if you ask in the L19 room, chances are good that someone will help you, too.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
Dr Burns wrote:
...I just don't feel like I'm learning anything, other than that I'm horrible at the game...


This is normal.

We all went through it. Go has the worst learning curve of anything I'v ever attempted to learn. Hang in there. It will get better.

You are learning things. They currently constitute such a small percentage of the things that you need to know so that you don't feel that you are making progress even when you are.
Author:  jts [ Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
Oh, I just checked out your account on KGS. You really want to start playing ranked games. The ranking matches you with opponents at your own level; it would sort of suck to be playing 14k in one game and 3k in the next, if you're looking for competitive games, but there's no way to avoid that without a rank.

And also, it's really easy to get ranked games on KGS; just turn on "automatch". If you have no rank and want to play free games, it's harder.
Author:  xed_over [ Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
it can be really hard to get evenly matched games between beginners, because many are either learning faster than their rating can keep up, or they are temporarily stuck while others are zooming all around them.

try to get some teaching games in, where someone can help point out one or two things for your to improve on or change during a review -- and even when you are teaching other beginners, it can help reinforce what you already know and often help you learn a few new things yourself.

if you don't mind losing all the time, then just keep playing stronger players and you'll improve even though you may lose all your games.
Author:  tezza [ Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
Hi Joaz,
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Go has the worst learning curve of anything I'v ever attempted to learn.
Thanks, I thought it just me :-? .

Hi xed_over,
xed_over wrote:
… beginners, because many are either learning faster than their rating can keep up, or they are temporarily stuck while others are zooming all around them..
I really feel like the latter (I console myself that it is "temporary" :lol: ).

Cheers
tezza
Author:  Dr Burns [ Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
To all,

Thanks for the responses. It sounds like for right now I need to paint on a smile, play some more games and take my lumps. Maybe I'll get used to playing on KGS. For now it's just unpleasant, oh well.


God bless,
Adam
Author:  emeraldemon [ Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
Also, are you aware of the KGS room for this forum? Rooms at the top -> Room List -> Clubs -> Lifein19x19.com. I'm guessing many people in that room would be willing to play a friendly game with you and offer some advice. If you see me on (greendemon) message me and I'll play :)

(Also if you take up DGS pm me there and we'll set up a teaching game)
Author:  xed_over [ Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
Dr Burns wrote:
Maybe I'll get used to playing on KGS. For now it's just unpleasant, oh well.

it doesn't really have to be so unpleasant.

its all about trying to solve a puzzle, and trying to correct your mistakes of the past

try to focus on playing the board, not the person (irregardless of their rank). that may help you enjoy the game more, even against unevenly matched opponents.
Author:  ACGalaga [ Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
Hey Adam, nice to meet you!

I've been enjoying DGS a lot just because I don't have the time to play live. Playing turned based also allows me to continue thinking about strategy that can be applied in live games when I have the chance to play then.

However~

tezza wrote:
(iii) if we have many games going at one time, one bad day could mean making bad moves across many games :shock:


Oh man... this happens to me often (^_^;) It's even worse when I decide to make moves when drunk. I'll be at a party someplace, notice my phone and play some moves on a few games. Next morning, "What the?! ...awe man, when did I do that?!"
Author:  tezza [ Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
Hi,

ACGalaga wrote:
It's even worse when I decide to make moves when drunk.
I play many such moves when I'm sleep-deprived. Recently an opponent, after I made two such moves, added salt to the wound by saying "your last moves were weak" :oops: .

Cheers
tezza
Author:  Dr Burns [ Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
Guys,

Thanks. I think I'll get DGS going today to give it a shot. I can understand a bit about being careful when you play. My bicycle nearly wrecked on the way back home last night, which left me with a nice adrenaline dump. Adrenaline and Go really don't mix well. Maybe if the stone's were really big and there was a baby stuck underneath one; then it'd help. But that wasn't the case...

Does anyone have any advice on contact players. I played a guy that after the first 8/10 moves felt the need to touch every single stone I played. The game was annoying and deeply unpleasant. Go is likened to a conversation at times. It was reminiscent of a conversation with a petulant child that responds nuh-uh to everything you say. I hate to ask, but is there some polite way to end such games. I want to get better at Go, but its also how I spend my relaxing time. I'd like it to be enjoyable.

Also, there have been a couple good matches on KGS. I still tend to be anxious when I play on the computer, i don't know why. I've thought about maybe playing games out on a real board simultaneously. Maybe that'd help? Thanks for all the advice guys.

One more question! I was reading last night and the author was talking aboug "Double Sente" it sounds good to me, but I don't know where to go to get some, lol. Can anyone explain it a bit. (I do understand sente/gote/reverse sente, at least academically)

God bless,
Adam
Author:  xed_over [ Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
Dr Burns wrote:
Does anyone have any advice on contact players. I played a guy that after the first 8/10 moves felt the need to touch every single stone I played. The game was annoying and deeply unpleasant.

hahaha, yeah, go players each seem to have their own quirks.

I've played with people like that before too. And I've seen professional players do the same. And players who keep "straightening" the same group of stones they've already straightened while they're considering their next move (and usually in that area).

I also play regularly with a dan level player who rarely ever plays his stones on the intersections, and often they're as far off as being in the middle of two points, or almost in the squares and not being able to tell where he intended to play. The most annoying part of that is that he just leaves them there and it doesn't seem to bother him at all. I have to straighten almost all his stones just to be able to see what the shape on the board is. I've learned to adjust a little so that I only straighten his worst ones.

I've also played a guy who is almost blind. He plays leaned over the board with his face a mere 4-6 inches from the board. I felt guilty being annoyed :), but that game was tough because I couldn't always see the whole board myself.
Author:  blade90 [ Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
To contact plays there are many possibilities, depending on the position.
But the 2 standard responses that every beginner should know are shown below. Always playing contact moves is bad, a contact move induces a response and that makes it stronger - in other words if you touch an enemy stone you force it to get stronger.

Here the most common responses:
First the simple extend, white touches black and black extends, very simple: This is called "nobi"
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . 2 . . . .
$$ . . . . X 1 . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]


The 2nd is the bend, that could get complicated if white crosscuts but at your level don't think about that: This move is called "hane"
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . 2 . . .
$$ . . . . X 1 . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]


I recommend to simply experiment with both of them, using always the same in every situation is wrong, but for now use them. If you are not sure what is better, try to read it out or flip a coin - you should watch how your opponents respond and how the game continues.

Beginners that are contact players are always trying to provoke a fight, not knowing that contact moves are used for defence and not attack - there are some exceptions, but you will see that in your own games.
Author:  xed_over [ Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
ah, I misread "contact" and "touch". sorry.
Author:  Dr Burns [ Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
Xed-Over,

I enjoyed your post despite your misread. I wish he did "touch" every stone played. Since we were on KGS after a little while all he would see were his finger prints on the monitor lol!


Blade90,

Thanks, I'll have to just work on my responses. I just find the play style annoying. I didn't feel like I was able to play Go that much, just a thousand rounds of capture. It made me die a little inside.


Thanks and God bless,
Adam
Author:  Bill Spight [ Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginner needing some direction:
Dr Burns wrote:
One more question! I was reading last night and the author was talking aboug "Double Sente" it sounds good to me, but I don't know where to go to get some, lol. Can anyone explain it a bit. (I do understand sente/gote/reverse sente, at least academically)


Hi, Doc! Welcome to go. :)

First, a warning. Go has a long history, and so many go terms are like words in a regular language: ambiguous. You may get conflicting explanations, both of which are correct, depending on context. Sente and gote are such terms. Both have been around for ages, and each has more than one meaning. If there is a point or region of play where, no matter which player plays there, the other player must reply, each player's forcing play is called a double sente. What confuses people is that whether a play is double sente depends upon the rest of the board. Each player's reply has to be bigger or better than any other play on the board. There is no such thing as a double sente in a vacuum. You cannot just look at a local region and say that a play there is double sente. Nonetheless, even some textbooks, particularly older ones, will do that. One recent book, Absolute Counting in the Endgame (in Japanese), by O Meien, 9 dan, does not even mention double sente.
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