Life In 19x19 :: 3-4 Joseki and invasion OR How does this work?

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3-4 Joseki and invasion OR How does this work? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4988	Page 1 of 1

Author:

Gegenzeit [ Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:15 am ]

Post subject:

3-4 Joseki and invasion OR How does this work?

Hi,

I played an even match against a stronger player yesterday. In it we came across a joseki continuation, I've read about recently:

So far I know the Joseki well. What I had read was that I can invade, if I approach from the other side and my opponent plays tenuki. So I did, so did he.
It took a while until the invasion looked important enough to me, but later in the game I played it. Alas, he did not play the way, I've read about.
Long story short: My position fell apart

At home I tried to figure out what I made wrong. I found this at the senesei's library. The exact same position is given as a win for black at josekipedia as well. AND: It is exactly how I played it. Only that I lost after my opponent played on a.

I do not recall exactly how I lost, but I try to grasp what I should have done. Unfortunately I can't find a continuation to the pattern pattern given at senseis'/josekipedia.
These is the best I can come up with on my own:

Is that how it works?

Thanks!

Jörg

Attachments:

joseki_invasion.sgf [156 Bytes]
Downloaded 800 times

Author:	EdLee [ Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:19 am ]
Post subject:
Gegenzeit wrote: I do not recall exactly how I lost It would be very helpful if you could post the exact position you're asking about.

Author:	Loons [ Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 3-4 Joseki and invasion OR How does this work?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bc $$ +--------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . 8 . 7 . 9 0 . . $$ \| . . . X X O . 1 . O . X . $$ \| . . X , O O 6 3 2 c . . . $$ \| . . . . . . 5 4 a . . . . $$ \| . . X . . . . b . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]` It seems you omitted 5-6 given on Josekipedia. White seems to run out of liberties after eg. a-b-c. It's implicit that you'd be satisfied by shattering white into two very weak groups if he attempts to keep you seperated somehow. I realise this doesn't match your diagram exactly but I'm sure you get the gist. Allowing him to capture K18 solved his liberty problem in your diagram. *Oh, actually it didn't. I guess threatening to run at 5-6 is the key thing.

Author:	hyperpape [ Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 3-4 Joseki and invasion OR How does this work?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bc $$ +--------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . O . X O X O . . $$ \| . . . X X O . X # O X X . $$ \| . . X , O O . X O c . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . O a . . . . $$ \| . . X . . . . b . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]` In the later line that you posted, this looks good for B. If white connects above, B connects below. If white captures below, B escapes, and may be able to kill white's small group on the side.

Author:

Gegenzeit [ Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:27 am ]

Post subject:

Re: 3-4 Joseki and invasion OR How does this work?

Thanks for the replies. I see now that I should have been able to defend my position better than in the actual game.

@EdLee: Unfortunatly I do not recall exactly how it went down. I was unsatisfied with my game and started to throw in stones ...that's not only bad for the game but also for your chances of remembering it

So I try to understand the basic pattern behind the situation in a local context.

I try to explain what baffled me again

This is how I learned it would go down:

My opponent did not play that way but tried to trap my stone with a diagonal move (What are they called again?

).

I lost my nerve and lost somehow. At home I wanted to find out what happened and came basically across this:

All sources end here ... as if it was self evident that white shouldn't play that way and as if it was completly clear what would happen now. It isn't 100% clear to me now, yet - but I feel I start to get it. I still can come up with too many variations to be satisfied, though.

For example:

This seems to lead to a Ko or allow white to stay connected and escape to the outside

In conclusion: I'm confused and still looking for the best local result for white if both players continue to play as strong as possible

Jörg

PS: I now realise that the last position seems to be a catastrophy for white. It still gives a good impression of what I'm doing when I try to understand the position, though.

Attachments:

white resist _ variation 1.sgf [184 Bytes]
Downloaded 780 times

White resists.sgf [116 Bytes]
Downloaded 796 times

Peaceful.sgf [128 Bytes]
Downloaded 777 times

Author:	hyperpape [ Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 3-4 Joseki and invasion OR How does this work?
In that last diagram, Black can capture at J15, and he will be thick, while White has no eyes on the side. Black can profit from the attack. M18 may also be an interesting place for B to play, but I think capturing in the center may be easier and better. P.S. In the way you learned it, I think L17 is worse than K16. After K16, black still has to fix his shape, but White doesn't have the two stones that lack liberties. (Butting your head against an enemy stone like L17 should raise warning flags: it is very often bad).

Author:	Gegenzeit [ Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 3-4 Joseki and invasion OR How does this work?
I checked again and you were completly right. K16 is the right move.

Author: Bill Spight [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:24 pm ]

Post subject: Re: 3-4 Joseki and invasion OR How does this work?

These diagrams did not accord with my memory, so I checked the GoGoD database to make sure.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc "Joseki" $$ +--------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . 7 . 5 . . . . . $$ | . . 3 X X O . 1 . O . X . $$ | . . X 2 O O . 4 6 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

These days something like this is usual. Often White will omit :w2:

or play

first. (PLaying :w4:

was usual when I was learning go.) White often omits :w8:

. The search did not turn up any times where White started with :w6:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc "Joseki" $$ +--------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 a . $$ | . . . X X O . 1 3 O 7 X . $$ | . . X . O O . 2 4 6 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Black frequently plays :b3:

. Black may also play at "a" instead of :b7:

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