Life In 19x19 :: Rating Issue-First Tournament

I entered at 12k with this info. The tournament organizer got back to me and said that BGA ranks would be 2 ranks or so lower than KGS and that I might like to enter at 9-10k or something instead and gave me the option of changing my rank at registration on the day.

The problem, of course, is that that's such a huge difference that it might mean the difference between having competitive or uncompetitive games.

Of course, the best answer would be for me to play a game against a known BGA-rated player so that I can see where I am, but all the rated players at my club that I see when I go (sadly, not enough lately) are at least 5kyu.

I don't really want to enter too much too low and sandbag, and I _really_ don't want to enter too high and just get slaughtered 7 times, so I'm not totally sure what to do. My previous experience is with chess where you just go in unranked and they assign you a provisional ranking after the first tournament.

Is this an actual problem? Is the McMahon structure sufficiently good at this that I will find a level of game where I have a chance to win in the first round or three? I certainly don't mind losing and/or playing stronger players, but I also would like to find out what my level actually is as well.

Anyway, does anyone have any advice about this, and also ofc if there is a BGA-rated, say, 9-13kyu out there who would like to play an online game, that would be great as well.

In order to establish a relation between on-line server grades and BGA strengths we will be setting up a system to collect information from players who play in tournaments as well as on-line.

I would just enter at your current KGS rank. If your rank is going up, then presumably you are improving. Therefore, in a months time you are going to be stronger. You may well improve during the tournament too, if you get your game reviewed by the pro. The whole 2 ranks thing looks a bit arbitrary to me.

mumps wrote:

In order to establish a relation between on-line server grades and BGA strengths we will be setting up a system to collect information from players who play in tournaments as well as on-line.

Out of interest, when will this actually happen?

I resigned in one game, sure I was losing, then found out I was ahead when I looked at the game later on my computer :oops:

) , then in the next round had a huge lead, blundered to let an enormous group of mine die, petulantly played on until the end because I didn't like what happened in the previous game, and then when we counted I had a 1-point win. :shock:

Ortho wrote:

I resigned in one game, sure I was losing, then found out I was ahead when I looked at the game later on my computer :oops:

yeah, that's why we usually tell beginners to never resign

(as always, there are obvious exceptions)

Author:	Ortho [ Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:56 am ]
Post subject:	Rating Issue-First Tournament
Hi, I'm going to play in my first tournament at the end of the month. I needed to enter a grade on the entry form. Here is the information I have: I'm ranked 11k on KGS. I feel this might be slightly overrated bc I have been on a good run of results lately. MFOG thinks I am 11k. I am 18k on Tygem (I have won 2, lost 13, and usually just get slaughtered). I am 15k at my club, but I get one game/month there and am on a really long winning streak of handicap games. The way our system works I will need 10 more wins or something to catch up to my KGS rank, so I usually just adjust. From what I can see, EGF ranks are 3-4 higher than KGS ranks, suggesting something like 11k KGS->15k EGF? I entered at 12k with this info. The tournament organizer got back to me and said that BGA ranks would be 2 ranks or so lower than KGS and that I might like to enter at 9-10k or something instead and gave me the option of changing my rank at registration on the day. I'm not sure the BGA/EGF thing makes sense to me as that would imply 5-6 ranks difference between BGA/EGF-I would be 10kyu BGA/15kyu EGF. Having glanced at the lists, I haven't seen anyone with that big of a split. The problem, of course, is that that's such a huge difference that it might mean the difference between having competitive or uncompetitive games. Of course, the best answer would be for me to play a game against a known BGA-rated player so that I can see where I am, but all the rated players at my club that I see when I go (sadly, not enough lately) are at least 5kyu. I don't really want to enter too much too low and sandbag, and I _really_ don't want to enter too high and just get slaughtered 7 times, so I'm not totally sure what to do. My previous experience is with chess where you just go in unranked and they assign you a provisional ranking after the first tournament. Is this an actual problem? Is the McMahon structure sufficiently good at this that I will find a level of game where I have a chance to win in the first round or three? I certainly don't mind losing and/or playing stronger players, but I also would like to find out what my level actually is as well. Anyway, does anyone have any advice about this, and also ofc if there is a BGA-rated, say, 9-13kyu out there who would like to play an online game, that would be great as well.

Author:	p2501 [ Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rating Issue-First Tournament
Don't sweat it 2-3 ranks difference doesn't make that much difference in the ddk-range. The first tournament for me was all about getting the tournament experience - working with clocks and time pressure, ... Just do your best and have fun

Author:	entropi [ Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rating Issue-First Tournament
Check this table : http://senseis.xmp.net/?RankWorldwideComparison My personal suggestion would be start a bit higher than your actual rank. You may end up with 7 losses, but it doesn't matter. Especially for your first tournament, 7 losses may be demoralizing at first but actually it doesn't mean anything. Having said that, I know it is easy to say hard to do (not to care about the losing strike). But at least try. If you think you can psychologically not manage it, then the solution is simple, start with a lower rank. But most important of all, try to enjoy regardless of win/loss situation!

Author:	amnal [ Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rating Issue-First Tournament
Quote: I entered at 12k with this info. The tournament organizer got back to me and said that BGA ranks would be 2 ranks or so lower than KGS and that I might like to enter at 9-10k or something instead and gave me the option of changing my rank at registration on the day. I thought that the BGA position was that BGA ranks were 2 ranks weaker than KGS ones, or at least that this was what was implied by the word 'lower'. That is, a KGS 11k would be BGA 13k. Maybe I'm wrong, though, or the tournament organiser has his own opinions about it. Regardless, this number was mostly a guess in the first place, and I wouldn't worry about it much. If it's a 6 round tournament, that's probably long enough for even a 2 rank mistake to get absorbed, though you might get a couple of difficult/easy games at the beginning. It sounds like it might be the London Open, in which case it's 7 rounds and so even better. Overall, don't worry about it. If you're playing a lot, your rank may not even be the same when you get to the tournament as it is now. Regardless of what it is, whoever is on the door will be happy to discuss with you what is best, and even if you get it 'wrong' by a grade or two this is unlikely to my a problem, as your rank varies a lot anyway. To put that another way, whilst I beat 1k players more or less all the time, that doesn't mean that any given game seems easy

Author:	mumps [ Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rating Issue-First Tournament
The official BGA policy on our website (written some while ago) is: The BGA encourages on-line players to enter over-the-board tournaments. In order to establish a relation between on-line server grades and BGA strengths we will be setting up a system to collect information from players who play in tournaments as well as on-line. Until a meaningful correlation between server and BGA grades is established, the following guide will apply for an on-line player entering a BGA tournament for the very first time or after a long absence: For kyu players BGA grade is server grade - 2 For dan players BGA grade is also server grade - 2, but the highest entry grade is 2d unless agreed ahead of time with the BGA. So the organiser should have been suggesting 13 kyu. Jon President, BGA

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Rating Issue-First Tournament http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5121	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Ortho [ Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rating Issue-First Tournament
Oh, I see. Could've just been clerical error/interpretation of the"-2" that was suggesting 9kyu vs 13kyu. That helps a lot. Thanks a lot everyone. I'm much more comfortable now, and looking forward to it.

Author:	mumps [ Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rating Issue-First Tournament
Ortho wrote: The problem, of course, is that that's such a huge difference that it might mean the difference between having competitive or uncompetitive games. Of course, the best answer would be for me to play a game against a known BGA-rated player so that I can see where I am, but all the rated players at my club that I see when I go (sadly, not enough lately) are at least 5kyu. I don't really want to enter too much too low and sandbag, and I _really_ don't want to enter too high and just get slaughtered 7 times, so I'm not totally sure what to do. My previous experience is with chess where you just go in unranked and they assign you a provisional ranking after the first tournament. Is this an actual problem? Is the McMahon structure sufficiently good at this that I will find a level of game where I have a chance to win in the first round or three? I certainly don't mind losing and/or playing stronger players, but I also would like to find out what my level actually is as well. Anyway, does anyone have any advice about this, and also ofc if there is a BGA-rated, say, 9-13kyu out there who would like to play an online game, that would be great as well. Just to add a few other things: If you enter close to your actual strength (say within 3-4 stones) then the McMahon system will sort things out over 7 rounds. Your posting has prompted us to look at what advice we're providing for new tournament players, i.e. not much. So we've created a page specially for you! We hope it'll be of use to more first time tournament players. http://www.britgo.org/tournaments/1st Comments please. Jon

Author:	Ortho [ Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rating Issue-First Tournament
Oh, that page is excellent. It answers the vast majority of other questions that I had but thought I'd just figure out on the day. I'll come back to this thread after the tournament if I encounter anything big that wasn't mentioned there. But thanks very much.

Author:	mumps [ Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rating Issue-First Tournament
If you still want to find a UK rated opponent you could try asking in the British room on KGS or post a request on Gotalk. We look forward to seeing you as a member of the BGA, if you're not already. Jon

Author:	Javaness2 [ Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rating Issue-First Tournament
I would just enter at your current KGS rank. If your rank is going up, then presumably you are improving. Therefore, in a months time you are going to be stronger. You may well improve during the tournament too, if you get your game reviewed by the pro. The whole 2 ranks thing looks a bit arbitrary to me. mumps wrote: In order to establish a relation between on-line server grades and BGA strengths we will be setting up a system to collect information from players who play in tournaments as well as on-line. Out of interest, when will this actually happen?

Author:	Psychee [ Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rating Issue-First Tournament
my kgs rank = my BGA rank. I usually enter at kgs -1. But I think it won't be too much different. As a ddk, maybe you'll find yourself 2 stones stronger after 7 rounds serious tournament games btw, if you find you didn't enter at the correct rank after first several games, maybe you can talk to the orgniser to change it?

Author:	mumps [ Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rating Issue-First Tournament
Javaness2 wrote: I would just enter at your current KGS rank. If your rank is going up, then presumably you are improving. Therefore, in a months time you are going to be stronger. You may well improve during the tournament too, if you get your game reviewed by the pro. The whole 2 ranks thing looks a bit arbitrary to me. mumps wrote: In order to establish a relation between on-line server grades and BGA strengths we will be setting up a system to collect information from players who play in tournaments as well as on-line. Out of interest, when will this actually happen? I've no idea, since this statement is already several years old and I'm not aware of such a system. Perhaps Geoff Kaniuk will be doing something sometime? Jon

Author:	Javaness2 [ Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rating Issue-First Tournament
So... did you actually play?

Author:	Ortho [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rating Issue-First Tournament
Yes, then I went on a holiday to rest. I had a very good time. As to my one data point, I was KGS 11k before the tournament, went in at 13k as advised, won 4, lost 3, and came out at 12k on the EGA rating list. I'm not sure if that means I'll be also be 12k on the BGA list, because I haven't showed up on it yet, but I'll be within a stone either way and it doesn't much matter. I think the big lesson at my level is that the stone or two didn't really matter either way. There were only 5 players rated 11k or higher, and I played them all, and this would've happened if my rating was anywhere 10-15kyu. It was more a matter of comfort at my level, I think, but it didn't end up mattering much. As for the games, I used most/all of my time every game and in general noticed that I was playing much more slowly than my opponents, who seldom used more than 30 min for all their moves. I was in overtime in 3 of the games and no one was ever in overtime against me. I felt that I played quite well for my level, in that I felt that I had winning chances in each of the 7 games I played, although obviously I would've been rewarded with even harder opponents had I won those games. The "luck", if there is such a thing, evened out for me--I resigned in one game, sure I was losing, then found out I was ahead when I looked at the game later on my computer ) , then in the next round had a huge lead, blundered to let an enormous group of mine die, petulantly played on until the end because I didn't like what happened in the previous game, and then when we counted I had a 1-point win. But in all I enjoyed the games, met a lot of people, and had great fun! Thanks to everyone for their help. I'm going to play another tournament this month and am really looking forward to it.

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Author:	xed_over [ Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rating Issue-First Tournament
Ortho wrote: I resigned in one game, sure I was losing, then found out I was ahead when I looked at the game later on my computer ) , then in the next round had a huge lead, blundered to let an enormous group of mine die, petulantly played on until the end because I didn't like what happened in the previous game, and then when we counted I had a 1-point win. yeah, that's why we usually tell beginners to never resign (as always, there are obvious exceptions)

Author:	mumps [ Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Rating Issue-First Tournament
xed_over wrote: Ortho wrote: I resigned in one game, sure I was losing, then found out I was ahead when I looked at the game later on my computer ) , then in the next round had a huge lead, blundered to let an enormous group of mine die, petulantly played on until the end because I didn't like what happened in the previous game, and then when we counted I had a 1-point win. yeah, that's why we usually tell beginners to never resign (as always, there are obvious exceptions) a) don't rely on your computer to provide an accurate count - it won't if there are complex situations. OTOH it might be right! b) do spend a little time learning HOW to count and then spend a little time during a game on ACTUALLY counting even when you're short of time - try this when your opponent is to move. It will influence what you decide to do in the game. Jon

Author:	badukJr [ Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Rating Issue-First Tournament
I remember my first tournament. I was 8k KGS, but I entered at 5k. It was a handicap tournament. I found that the tournament setting helped me concentrate so much more. I ended up in 2nd place. So, you should enter higher.