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| negative points in handicap games http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5509 |
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| Author: | otenki [ Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | negative points in handicap games |
Hi guys, I've been reading the book "Opening Theory Made Easy" and have been learning a lot from it as a beginner. Howhever I don't get a lot of practice as people online usualy are about my rank and suck at fuseki just as bad as me. At my club I rarely get to play normal fuseki since most games I play are 7-9 handi. So I would like to play handi games without stone handi by just using negative points for white. This way I can practice what I have learned while white still has a challenging game. So my question is how many negative points do i set for every "stone". I thought about komi... 6.5 * 9 stones would be about 58.5 points. Would this be good ? Thanks, Otenki |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: negative points in handicap games |
Traditionally, one handicap stone was considered to be worth 10 points. We now know that that is not enough (up to some number of stones). However, a game where White gives a large komi is a teaching game, anyway.  For instance, if White is 7 stones stronger, a reverse komi of 70 points may be too small, but it can lead to an enjoyable game, anyway.
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| Author: | Wildclaw [ Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: negative points in handicap games |
otenki wrote: So my question is how many negative points do i set for every "stone". I thought about komi... 6.5 * 9 stones would be about 58.5 points. Would this be good ? Komi is worth half a move, so double that and you get a better value. However, negative komi favors the weaker player as they basically gets pure points in the pocket. Compare that to handicap stones where the weaker player still has to actually make use of the stones, and the stronger player can punish when the weaker player fails to do so. |
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| Author: | mw42 [ Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: negative points in handicap games |
Bill Spight wrote: Traditionally, one handicap stone was considered to be worth 10 points. We now know that that is not enough (up to some number of stones). However, a game where White gives a large komi is a teaching game, anyway. For instance, if White is 7 stones stronger, a reverse komi of 70 points may be too small, but it can lead to an enjoyable game, anyway.Doesn't 10 reflect the old komi value of 5.5 and 12 be a more appropriate, albeit still too small for a larger number of stones, value for a komi of 6.5? Also, since black playing first and white not receiving komi is considered a handicap of 1 stone (black is one rank weaker), wouldn't the multiplier for negative komi be one less than the rank difference? Wildclaw, you shouldn't multiply the half point regardless as it is essentially a bookkeeping tool equivalent to the added rule "white wins jigo." |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: negative points in handicap games |
mw42 wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Traditionally, one handicap stone was considered to be worth 10 points. We now know that that is not enough (up to some number of stones). However, a game where White gives a large komi is a teaching game, anyway. For instance, if White is 7 stones stronger, a reverse komi of 70 points may be too small, but it can lead to an enjoyable game, anyway.Doesn't 10 reflect the old komi value of 5.5 and 12 be a more appropriate, albeit still too small for a larger number of stones, value for a komi of 6.5? Also, since black playing first and white not receiving komi is considered a handicap of 1 stone (black is one rank weaker), wouldn't the multiplier for negative komi be one less than the rank difference? The 10 pt. value goes back to pre-komi days. Back when I was living in New Mexico we used a 6.5 komi and I once gave a 100 pt. reverse komi instead of 8 stones. I won, too.  But a lot of people know about the traditional 10 pt. value, and it's a teaching game, anyway. Why quibble? The proper value, up to 9 stones, is around 14*H - 7, where H is the rank difference. But the point value of handicap stones decreases as the number of stones increases. You can give 40 stones, but you can't give a reverse komi of 400.
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: negative points in handicap games |
Bill Spight wrote: You can give 40 stones, but you can't give a reverse komi of 400. Well, not without territory scoring and a sufficiently cooperative/stupid opponent.
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| Author: | mw42 [ Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: negative points in handicap games |
Hmm, I was under the impression that the value of the first move and hence komi was held to be half the value of an empty corner so that twice komi would be the value of a handicap stone (at least for the first four). |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: negative points in handicap games |
mw42 wrote: Hmm, I was under the impression that the value of the first move and hence komi was held to be half the value of an empty corner so that twice komi would be the value of a handicap stone (at least for the first four). Right. And proper komi is around 7 (6.5 by territory scoring, 7.5 by area scoring). In the 1970s I estimated the value of a handicap stone as 13.7 by territory scoring, through 9 stones, and predicted 6.5 komi by the turn of the century. (Almost right. ) Other statistics at the time indicated a komi of around 7, which agrees with my estimate.
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| Author: | jts [ Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: negative points in handicap games |
You can still practice something like 17 of the 20 principles with a large handicap. Essentially, the reason to give a handicap rather than reverse komi is to keep some tension in the game on the board for as long as possible. Once the game is a route, and White is just trying to run up the score, Black won't have as many opportunities to apply most of Otake's opening principles. |
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| Author: | Xyiana [ Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: negative points in handicap games |
Bill Spight formula is nice if rank difference isnt high. With your rank if you want to play against 1k-1d get aroung 150points. In teaching game without tricks it is enough difference i think. |
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| Author: | tapir [ Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: negative points in handicap games |
Large reverse komi distorts the game as much as handicap stones. If you want to train your opening ask a stronger to play with you through an even opening with the explicit understanding that the stronger player can stop the game when he believes it gets one-sided. (I don't think it is a very useful approach, but I play 4-4 stones all around when starting with Black anyway, though I do this if beginners ask for it in the club.) In a beginners hand a handicap stone rarely is worth double komi, but granting him double komi as reverse komi definitely is. Especially in high handicap games it is not so easy not to make a ridiculous amount of inefficient moves. |
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| Author: | gowan [ Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: negative points in handicap games |
If it is understood that the game is a teaching game then it can work very well to play on even with a stronger player. With the goal of teaching, the stronger player can create situations that pose specific problems for the weaker player, such as working on urgent points before big points, or judging the size of plays early in the opening. Of course playing with handicap stones also teaches many important things so I wouldn't say either method is always better than the other. |
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| Author: | otenki [ Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: negative points in handicap games |
Thanks, Just for future reference if someone is also in the situation I was in and wants to try this out: My conclusion was that this was NOT a very usefull way of playing. If you play a much stronger player then his opening will be at a totaly different level. So when you want to practice doing new things you have learned in the book then the situation will never occur against stronger players simply because they for example already know that you should never "give" this situation to the other player. Hence you cannot practice/understand it ... Bad ! How I learned: I read one chapter of the book I played a few games against a player a bit stronger than me online (like 2 to 3 stones) without handi. then go back to reading etc. This proved to work much better for me. Cheers, Otenki |
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| Author: | tapir [ Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: negative points in handicap games |
otenki wrote: So when you want to practice doing new things you have learned in the book then the situation will never occur against stronger players simply because they for example already know that you should never "give" this situation to the other player. Hence you cannot practice/understand it ... Bad ! This really depends on what kind of thing you try to learn. Easy trick moves, learned answers to joseki mistakes things like this likely won't work, but if you learn about corner enclosures, high and low stones, approaches and pincers, efficiency, orientation of stones, i.e. basic concepts your opponent can't stop you from playing / applying those. You will be able to play them even against a professional (to be slaughtered later). I think it is very important to focus on basic stuff and to stick with it. Don't develop elaborate opening preferences (but surely you should experiment) as long as you are a beginner. There is a nice series with the title "Develop your intuition.", I can't remember the content but the motto is exactly what you should do. If you meet other players around your level that do have elaborate ideas about the opening, don't believe them. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: negative points in handicap games |
tapir wrote: In a beginners hand a handicap stone rarely is worth double komi, but granting him double komi as reverse komi definitely is. Good point. Quote: Especially in high handicap games it is not so easy not to make a ridiculous amount of inefficient moves. Speak for yourself.
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: negative points in handicap games |
I can no longer remember whether this pro said it to me or to a friend, but after that kyu player had put down 9 stones in a simul, he said "Not so many. If you want to win, put down 9. If you want to learn, put down 5". By the same logic, playing someone a little better than you without handicap can be excellent practice. |
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| Author: | brodie [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: negative points in handicap games |
otenki, if you ever want to just practice some fuseki in free games, just to kind of mess around and discuss, we should play on kgs sometime. (of course i would also be fine with playing more serious ranked games with discussion, or free even games, etc). I used to have that book, but did not make enough use of it, and would love to practice some more fuseki. my rank right on kgs fluctuates between 9 and 11k on kgs, but my formal training (joseki, fuseki) is pretty rusty. pm me if you want some practice! it would motivate me to spend more time practicing myself. |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: negative points in handicap games |
Bill Spight wrote: The proper value, up to 9 stones, is around 14*H - 7, where H is the rank difference. But the point value of handicap stones decreases as the number of stones increases. The value does not depend linearly on the number of handicap stones. Up to a certain (still unknown minimal) number of handicap stones sufficient to kill any opposing stone, there is some effect of increasing value of extra handicap stones because they can cooperate better with each other. As I have tested in dozens of games against roughly equally strong 5 dan players, a Japanese style 9 stones handicap equals about 130 points komi under territory scoring. That is 14.4 points per stone, i.e. more than your formula predicts. For even games without handicap, currently there are three evidences that probably 7 is the correct komi: - professional game statistics (however, they should also play thousands of 8 or 9 komi games to be sure) - the conceptual (but still unproven) idea that komi must be half the first move's value - my corner killing and influence idea (see Joseki 2 Strategy, chapter 4.4.1), which assesses the average local move value of an early corner move to be slightly above 14 in every test example pattern |
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