Life In 19x19 :: Is there a way to become good without playing?

Nope.

Sakata Eio actually wrote a mini-essay about this, on the absurdity of trying to "become strong in secret, while no one's watching."

You might be able to get up to 12k or so just by doing life and death problems. I'm not sure. I would be surprised if memorizing professional games meant much if you're truly a beginner. (Of course, I'm taking your word for it. Perhaps you are being very modest.)

Keep playing! Go is both fun and beautiful. And the more fun you have playing, the more you'll understand the beauty of high-level play.

Oh, and welcome to L19.

I find it extremely hard to do this. I just can not bring myself to play anymore when I see the game becomming a clusterbumble.
Not matter if I'm winning or losing I usually resign by then.
I guess I'm very bad but I can't know for sure what my actual rank would be since I barely finished playing any games yet.

Ryuukun wrote:

When an aspiring artist is learning to draw, he doesn't crumple up a sheet of paper the second he feels that a line is off. No, he troops on and finishes the complete drawing. And when that first composition is complete, he pulls the next sheet and starts drawing again - sometimes, drawing the exact same subject a second time. Every single mistake is a learning experience, and he wants to learn as much as possible from each sheet of paper he uses.

A game of go is like that. When you make a mistake in one corner, you should be overjoyed! You've learned something, and now you have three more corners to make mistakes in before the game is over. In fact, go is even more forgiving than most other skills; in a game between two beginners, one expects each player to make at least a dozen or two dozen very serious, game-changing mistakes. So if you resign after the first game-changing mistake, you're missing 96% of the game, and you really should have no idea who will win or lose.

Nope.

You might be able to get up to 12k or so just by doing life and death problems. I'm not sure.

I am from Scotland.
I first heard about go when I was looking for games to play in the early eighties and I read about it in the Encyclopedia Britannica. I was intrigued. The encyclopedia cited its source material as a book called the Game of Go by Arthur Smith. This book was originally published in 1908 and was one of the first books published in the west to make a study of go. I bought this book. I also bought a toy go set which had a contact address for the British Go Association which I then joined. It was years before I had my first game as there was no club in my area at that time and no internet. I got to about 7 kyu just by reading books and doing problems (I found out my rank after I eventually started playing).

Author:	Ryuukun [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Is there a way to become good without playing?
Hi guys, unique question here. I love go, I love it so much, I'm actually dreaming of it every damn night. Whenever I watch proffesional go games I'm stunned by how beautiful the board looks and how well they play. It's something I could watch the whole day. But I don't want to play it myself, I'm disgusted by my own bad play and how every game becomes a messy full scale battle without any tactic involved. (just block and attack and block and attack) So I wondered if it's possible to become a decent enough player to be a challange to players that can actually play a beautiful game with me, without playing the game until then. Basically I wonder how far solving problems and learning from pro matches can bring you and if there are other ways to learn even more about go. I'm very obsessed with the beauty of higher level go. Yes, I know I'm weird.

Author:	hyperpape [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
Well, if you can arrange to get yourself possessed by the ghost of a Honinbo, yes. Beyond that, some players have gone far with a lot of study and minimal play. But usually they're experienced with chess or some other game, and they do still play some.

Author:	oren [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
No.

Author:	jts [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
Nope. Sakata Eio actually wrote a mini-essay about this, on the absurdity of trying to "become strong in secret, while no one's watching." You might be able to get up to 12k or so just by doing life and death problems. I'm not sure. I would be surprised if memorizing professional games meant much if you're truly a beginner. (Of course, I'm taking your word for it. Perhaps you are being very modest.) Keep playing! Go is both fun and beautiful. And the more fun you have playing, the more you'll understand the beauty of high-level play. Oh, and welcome to L19.

Author:	Ryuukun [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
jts wrote: Nope. Sakata Eio actually wrote a mini-essay about this, on the absurdity of trying to "become strong in secret, while no one's watching." You might be able to get up to 12k or so just by doing life and death problems. I'm not sure. I would be surprised if memorizing professional games meant much if you're truly a beginner. (Of course, I'm taking your word for it. Perhaps you are being very modest.) Keep playing! Go is both fun and beautiful. And the more fun you have playing, the more you'll understand the beauty of high-level play. Oh, and welcome to L19. I find it extremely hard to do this. I just can not bring myself to play anymore when I see the game becomming a clusterfuck. Not matter if I'm winning or losing I usually resign by then. I guess I'm very bad but I can't know for sure what my actual rank would be since I barely finished playing any games yet.

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Is there a way to become good without playing? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5700	Page 1 of 3

Author:	uPWarrior [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
Maybe you should try to understand the reason your games are ugly? (Doing so without playing is beyond my understanding)

Author:	Ryuukun [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
jts wrote: Nope. Sakata Eio actually wrote a mini-essay about this, on the absurdity of trying to "become strong in secret, while no one's watching." You might be able to get up to 12k or so just by doing life and death problems. I'm not sure. I would be surprised if memorizing professional games meant much if you're truly a beginner. (Of course, I'm taking your word for it. Perhaps you are being very modest.) Keep playing! Go is both fun and beautiful. And the more fun you have playing, the more you'll understand the beauty of high-level play. Oh, and welcome to L19. I can not find that essay, is there an english version available for it somewhere?

Author:	jts [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
Ryuukun wrote: I find it extremely hard to do this. I just can not bring myself to play anymore when I see the game becomming a clusterbumble. Not matter if I'm winning or losing I usually resign by then. I guess I'm very bad but I can't know for sure what my actual rank would be since I barely finished playing any games yet. When an aspiring artist is learning to draw, he doesn't crumple up a sheet of paper the second he feels that a line is off. No, he troops on and finishes the complete drawing. And when that first composition is complete, he pulls the next sheet and starts drawing again - sometimes, drawing the exact same subject a second time. Every single mistake is a learning experience, and he wants to learn as much as possible from each sheet of paper he uses. A game of go is like that. When you make a mistake in one corner, you should be overjoyed! You've learned something, and now you have three more corners to make mistakes in before the game is over. In fact, go is even more forgiving than most other skills; in a game between two beginners, one expects each player to make at least a dozen or two dozen very serious, game-changing mistakes. So if you resign after the first game-changing mistake, you're missing 96% of the game, and you really should have no idea who will win or lose.

Author:	Ryuukun [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
jts wrote: Ryuukun wrote: I find it extremely hard to do this. I just can not bring myself to play anymore when I see the game becomming a clusterbumble. Not matter if I'm winning or losing I usually resign by then. I guess I'm very bad but I can't know for sure what my actual rank would be since I barely finished playing any games yet. When an aspiring artist is learning to draw, he doesn't crumple up a sheet of paper the second he feels that a line is off. No, he troops on and finishes the complete drawing. And when that first composition is complete, he pulls the next sheet and starts drawing again - sometimes, drawing the exact same subject a second time. Every single mistake is a learning experience, and he wants to learn as much as possible from each sheet of paper he uses. A game of go is like that. When you make a mistake in one corner, you should be overjoyed! You've learned something, and now you have three more corners to make mistakes in before the game is over. In fact, go is even more forgiving than most other skills; in a game between two beginners, one expects each player to make at least a dozen or two dozen very serious, game-changing mistakes. So if you resign after the first game-changing mistake, you're missing 96% of the game, and you really should have no idea who will win or lose. You're right, I expect to much from me even at my first try. I'm like that sadly, it's a part of my personality which I hate a lot but I can not get rid of it no matter what I try. Sadly I see myself rather quitting then trying that's why I asked if there was a way. Since there is not, it can't be helped. Thanks for the quick answers though.

Author:	Magicwand [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
i will give you hope.. i know a persone reached 3 dan only by reviewing professional games. i believe you can reach upto 5 dan without playing.

Author:	Mike Novack [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
jts wrote: Nope. You might be able to get up to 12k or so just by doing life and death problems. I'm not sure. Possibly even a bit (not much) stronger than that and I am sure because I was stronger than that before had anybody* to play against (not even the computer). But ........ a) No, not just life and death problems. Have to actually look at commented games and have digested some "theory" books. b) Very few of us can learn this way. c) I don't think it will help you learn to cope with overplays (my experience). Lacking rouhg and tumble experience you will probably be overly solid (too slow) as that's judgement in the face of the opponents response and you need games under your belt to get that. * There were one or two games against people who said they knew how to play but I was already too strong for them

Author:	uPWarrior [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
Theoretically, you could solve life and death problems specifically about punishing overplays. I don't see many of these though..

Author:	hermitek [ Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
Battousai mentioned that his friend didn't play for some time and then jumped by about 10 ranks to dan ranks by memorizing and reviewing professional games. Maybe it's the same person as Magicwand metioned? And Bat himself got from around 10k to 1d by memorizing pro games only. But he doesn't recommend doing it (since he started hating go or something).

Author:	RBerenguel [ Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
I don't think you will get very far with it, but memorise pro games, watch high dan games in KGS (or Tygem, or WBaduk). Follow the latest pro games in Igokisen. Read Shape Up! And do millions of problems.

Page 1 of 3	All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/

Author:	gowan [ Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
You aren't going to be able to do it unless you can take a detached attitude about playing since no matter how much you learn through study alone you'll still be likely to panic when it comes time to actually play a stone. After all, you might mess up the game at any point. Memorizing pro games and studying tsumego won't help much when your opponent deviates from what you've seen in pro games. You need to know why the pros made their moves, not just what they played. On the other hand, most amateurs are really weak players so it shouldn't be all that hard to get to amateur dan level. I would guess that if you read and really understood just a couple of books, e.g. Haruyama and Nagahara's Basic Techniques of Go and Nagahara's Strategic Concepts of Go, you would be an amateur dan-level player. Of course it's the deep understanding that's hard to do. P.S. Even if you make it to amateur dan level you'll still be playing inelegant games that are riddled with errors

Author:	HermanHiddema [ Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
Perhaps you can try playing (teaching) games against strong players, if you can find someone willing? At our club, I play even games against 5-15 kyu players regularly. I try to play only good, calm moves, never anything unreasonable, even though it would easily work because of my opponent's lack of skill. I don't go all out, or seek complications just for the sake of complications. I allow my opponents to take back particularly egregious errors. I stick to simple joseki that my opponent can learn from. I may give them tips during the game, and I will certainly review it briefly afterwards. I know these players enjoy this kind of game. They don't care about winning or losing, they just enjoy playing it. And really, between a 4 dan and a 10 kyu, there is no real concept of winning or losing. At some point, handicap loses its meaning.

Author:	Xyiana [ Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
You can play against computers if you want "secret" dan level surprise on your first tournament. If you can handle it without too much stress ofc

Author:	BaghwanB [ Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
You have to play to get real and full enjoyment out of the game. I can critique the heck out of songs and can pound out a ditty or two but I don't call myself a musician. I know the rules of chess but haven't played a game in decades, so I don't call myself a chess player. Similarly, I don't think you can even call yourself a "go player" if you don't at least occasionally put stones on boards (IRL or via web). Bruce "Non-artist, non-architect, non-non" Young

Author:	Uberdude [ Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
I recently saw this on a 2k KGS user's info: Quote: I am from Scotland. I first heard about go when I was looking for games to play in the early eighties and I read about it in the Encyclopedia Britannica. I was intrigued. The encyclopedia cited its source material as a book called the Game of Go by Arthur Smith. This book was originally published in 1908 and was one of the first books published in the west to make a study of go. I bought this book. I also bought a toy go set which had a contact address for the British Go Association which I then joined. It was years before I had my first game as there was no club in my area at that time and no internet. I got to about 7 kyu just by reading books and doing problems (I found out my rank after I eventually started playing). But why don't you want to play? Playing Go is fun!

Author:	karaklis [ Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is there a way to become good without playing?
There are many reasons not to play, OGA, burnout, some cannot stand the adrenaline rush that naturally comes up when playing and prefer to do some more relaxing go related activities like tsumego or reading a good go book.