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The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
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Author:  Boidhre [ Wed May 16, 2012 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
I'm curious. I mostly play 9x9 for fun and for fighting practice with some added life and death practice but I wonder what other people think are the benefits of small board play both for complete beginners and people a bit further along, say my level around 14k KGS and stronger.

For absolute beginners, a small board is better just because you have to keep track of less and learning how to fight and some basic life and death can only be good things. But does it still continue to be of benefit later on or is it just a bit of fun?
Author:  illluck [ Wed May 16, 2012 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
I don't think there are any real drawbacks of 9x9, though of course benefits compared to bigger boards is what is really relevant. I wouldn't worry about it as long as you enjoy playing 9x9, but there's nothing against moving to larger boards either at any level as long as the size doesn't feel overwhelming.
Author:  snorri [ Wed May 16, 2012 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
It's very tactical and it's good for that. I think it's also helpful for endgame study because you get to the endgame faster, although certain endgame sequences would occur more naturally on a larger board, maybe 13x13.

I think contact moves are more often correct on smaller boards than they are on larger boards. On larger boards, moves that make your opponent stronger are often avoided because of future consequences, but on a small board, by the time you get to the middle game you're closer to a clearly winning or losing position so there is less concern about what might happen later. Just speculation, though.

If you have a short amount of time to play a game, it's an interesting alternative to a 19x19 blitz game. You can put more thought per move. Computers are also relatively stronger at 9x9 than at 19x19, so maybe it's possible to get more resistance from a program, which gives you other study options.

As for drawbacks, I suppose if you do it too much you might get too wrapped up in tactics and neglect strategic points on large boards, but IMHO I don't view that as a hard habit to correct. A habit of not reading is much harder to fix. :)
Author:  speedchase [ Wed May 16, 2012 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
drawbacks of 9x9. You get about as much practice /minute at tactical stuff as when you are playing by 19X19, but you don't get any strategic backing from it. Its sort of like teaching someone how to skateboard by making them ride around on a scooter so they can get practice balancing.
Author:  jts [ Wed May 16, 2012 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
I understand the idea that 9x9 is less strategic. That is to say, there's none of the unfolding flow of play that you get on a big board.

But strategy is a complex concept. A bigger problem is that 9x9 is too strategic. That is, when I'm reviewing 9x9 games, there's often no explanation for why a move is wrong other than "you don't have enough points to move there". Moves that are locally and tactically sound stop making sense very quickly because within a few moves, one side or the other can build up a huge advantage in points. For true beginners that doesn't matter, but for people who are really ready for 19x19 it's frustrating.
Author:  Loons [ Wed May 16, 2012 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
I agree with jts, 9x9 doesn't teach you normal moves because you have to be a bit nuts to win, degenerating to ridiculous ko strategies based around the scarcity of threats, etc.

On the flip side, that's pretty relevant to fighting ability.


I generally feel really frustrated in the opening of 9x9 because my opponent's first move is dominating the board and/or my opponent's 7 points seem insurmountable. Not really a drawback.
Author:  SuprunP [ Fri May 18, 2012 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
What if one is extremely good (let's even say 'unbeatable') at 9x9 would it be more of a great help to them when they move to 19x19 or rather something that could hindrance their improvement in the playing strength on 19x19 board?

Thanks.
Author:  gowan [ Fri May 18, 2012 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
Pros play 9x9 games, though mostly for demonstration purposes. Weaker players might learn more from studying pro vs pro 9x9 than from studying pro 19x19 games because they would have a better chance of seeing the meaning of the moves.
Author:  speedchase [ Fri May 18, 2012 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
SuprunP wrote:
What if one is extremely good (let's even say 'unbeatable') at 9x9 would it be more of a great help to them when they move to 19x19 or rather something that could hindrance their improvement in the playing strength on 19x19 board?

Thanks.

Being a master of 9x9 would certainly help when playing 19x19, but if your goal is ultimately to get good at 19x19, i think that your time is better spent playing 19x19 than playing 9x9
Author:  illluck [ Fri May 18, 2012 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
I don't entirely agree with that, I'm sure there is a skill range (which would of course depend on the individual) in which 9 by 9 is just better than 19 by 19 for improvement.
Author:  Boidhre [ Fri May 18, 2012 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
speedchase wrote:
SuprunP wrote:
What if one is extremely good (let's even say 'unbeatable') at 9x9 would it be more of a great help to them when they move to 19x19 or rather something that could hindrance their improvement in the playing strength on 19x19 board?

Thanks.

Being a master of 9x9 would certainly help when playing 19x19, but if your goal is ultimately to get good at 19x19, i think that your time is better spent playing 19x19 than playing 9x9


Yeah I'm very sympathetic to this view, my thing is for fighting practice 9x9 is quite handy. That said, there's nothing stopping one getting into fights on 19x19 either I suppose. :)
Author:  konfuzed [ Wed May 23, 2012 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
I think playing 9x9 or 13x13 increases your skillset in fighting for territory but neglects fuseki, influence, moyos, etc., which can influence your style of play if you focus on it enough. For example, somebody I know plays a lot of 13x13 games has a very tactics-oriented style, whereas I focus on the big picture and direction of play. Since you are matched up according to overall skill level, the things you practice most or least manifest themselves as strengths and weaknesses relative to your opponents. If you're better than your opponent at something, that means they have the advantage at something else.
Author:  Xaos [ Thu May 24, 2012 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
this is just me, but against gnuGo, on a 9x9 the game just becomes a race as to who is more efficient in blocking off "his" half of the board, and usually a stone or two make the difference in the score.. i am sure there is a lesson here that i can carry over to 19x19, but i havent learned it yet..
Author:  Boidhre [ Thu May 24, 2012 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
Xaos wrote:
this is just me, but against gnuGo, on a 9x9 the game just becomes a race as to who is more efficient in blocking off "his" half of the board, and usually a stone or two make the difference in the score.. i am sure there is a lesson here that i can carry over to 19x19, but i havent learned it yet..


GnuGo will play like that if you play like that. If you invade his side early then it's a very different game.
Author:  Xaos [ Thu May 24, 2012 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
Boidhre wrote:
Xaos wrote:
this is just me, but against gnuGo, on a 9x9 the game just becomes a race as to who is more efficient in blocking off "his" half of the board, and usually a stone or two make the difference in the score.. i am sure there is a lesson here that i can carry over to 19x19, but i havent learned it yet..


GnuGo will play like that if you play like that. If you invade his side early then it's a very different game.


no sh!t! i had no idea. since i take a handicap, i try to connect at least one edge or two. gonna try to be more aggressive. thanks for the heads up!
Author:  nafets [ Thu May 24, 2012 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
I used to play gnugo a lot on 9x9, except for learning to avoid some of the most common beginner mistakes I don't think it helped much. If you play it more often, you'll quickly learn its particular weaknesses; like the tendency to overkill a stone, allowing you to get a huge advantage by sacrifice. In the end I managed to beat it regularly on 9x9, and I was still 20k on KGS.
Author:  daal [ Fri May 25, 2012 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
Xaos wrote:
this is just me, but against gnuGo, on a 9x9 the game just becomes a race as to who is more efficient in blocking off "his" half of the board, and usually a stone or two make the difference in the score.. i am sure there is a lesson here that i can carry over to 19x19, but i havent learned it yet..


I think the lesson is: "Don't play like that."
Author:  Xaos [ Fri May 25, 2012 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The benefits/drawbacks of 9x9
daal wrote:
Xaos wrote:
this is just me, but against gnuGo, on a 9x9 the game just becomes a race as to who is more efficient in blocking off "his" half of the board, and usually a stone or two make the difference in the score.. i am sure there is a lesson here that i can carry over to 19x19, but i havent learned it yet..


I think the lesson is: "Don't play like that."


what about for the endgame? But as for the overall game, point taken.
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