| Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/ |
|
| What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner lvl http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6305 |
Page 1 of 2 |
| Author: | otenki [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner lvl |
Hi guys, Lately i've been reading some books on fuseki patterns and i'm finding them usefull and fun to read. For example i've read on orthodox, kobayashi and chinese. But lately i've been getting a lot of comments on the fact that i should not be studying fuseki at my lvl. Also in the store, fuseki books are ranked at dan lvl. Howhever nobody seems to be able to give me a good explanation on why i should not be studying this. In my humble opinion it helps to know how to attack, or more intresting how NOT to attack san-ren-sei for example. Looking forward to hearing what you guys think... Cheers, Otenki |
|
| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
otenki wrote: know how to attack, or more intresting how NOT to attack san-ren-sei It is good to learn how to attack or how not to attack, better than knowing only how to attack (or: reduce) or how not to attack a moyo and yet better than knowing only how to attack or how not to attack a san-ren-sei moyo. IOW, specific knowledge does not hurt but more general knowledge is more useful. Quote: comments on the fact that i should not be studying fuseki at my lvl. It is better to learn more generally applicable knowledge before studying too specific details. Once you will have learnt all the general basics, it makes more sense to study also the details. Quote: a good explanation on why i should not be studying this. You are possibly spending (wasting) your time on the less urgent knowledge. First study the fundamentals, then study the more specific knowledge. |
|
| Author: | otenki [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
That makes a lot of sense, thanks for pointing that out to me. Cheers, Otenki |
|
| Author: | judicata [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
It isn't necessarily "wrong" to study fuseki early on, depending on what you mean by "wrong." I agree that it is not efficient to study fuseki as a beginner, because other things are FAR more important. You may get some benefit from it, just not nearly as much as studying fundamentals. But amateur players have the luxury of being able to study things we enjoy. For example, I enjoyed reviewing professional games even around 10kyu. I didn't learn as much as I did from other study, but it helped keep my interest in the game. So if you enjoy studying opening patterns, then go for it. Just remain flexible, and know that it isn't the best way to improve. |
|
| Author: | BaghwanB [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
I'll agree with the theme of the above. It's perfectly OK to study it now but don't get caught up in attempting to memorize or master the "perfect" fuseki set since you have other aspects that should also be high (or higher) on your list of skills to acquire. I'd offer the same advice I give to beginners (more beginner than you...) about joseki study: Just get a feel for what to expect out of a given approach/response/pattern. Don't try to memorize/perfect them all. Just have an idea that "this protects the corner, that moves down the side". That way if you get a move or two wrong, you don't blow the whole concept/goal of the pattern; you just didn't get max. efficiency out of it. No big deal at this level of play. Have fun and study what you like, just remember to mix it up! Bruce "Joseph Seki" Young |
|
| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
There is no way that more knowledge can hurt you. However, you can be mislead by thinking that you understand something when you don't, and that can lead to future misunderstandings. For example, if you don't understand enough about attacking and killing, you may not understand why a certain approach to a certain stone in a certain fuseki is wrong. You may know that it gets killed because someone told you that it gets killed, but you don't know exactly how it gets killed. You don't really grok it. So you really aren't prepared to learn that fuseki. Ideally, you learn tactics: enough so that you can look at that approach stone, and at a glance realize that it is going to get killed. Then you are prepared to study that fuseki. ( Or at least that corner of it ) Obviously, this approach of never studing something until you understand all of the building blocks can lead to paralysis if take to the extreme. How to avoid that? Review what you have learned. Every once in a while, go back and review that things that you know. Take them apart and try to learn them again. The fuseki that you thought that you knew ( because you knew that the approach stone died ) you will now understand better the second time around ( because you will know why the approach stone dies. ) Understanding go may be compared to climbing a mountain via a long winding road that wraps around and around. The first time you are on the lower slopes you see things badly. Each time that you come around, you know more, and you have a better view of things. You see the same stuff, but you see it a little deeper each time through. Those 9dans at the top of the mountain have viewed the same scenery agan and again, and each time they learn more from it. So, yes, study fuseki. Then, in a year or two, come back and study it again. |
|
| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
The best way to make that second pass through the fuseki that you think you know is to try to explain it to someone else. ( This is something that I learned trying to help people in the 'game analysis' subforum ) |
|
| Author: | gowan [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
Unless I've misunderstood, the OP is hardly a beginner; he's sdk on kgs. So if he's writing for himself I'd say he can certainly benefit from studying the opening. I would recommend paying attention to how stones work together and what the general idea is for each opening and thinking about what the future development possibilities are for each of the common corner opening moves (3-3, 4-4, 3-4, 5-3, 5-4), and being consistent. At his level he could benefit from reading Otake's Opening Theory Made Easy. Yilun Yang's Fundamental Principles of Go, which has a lot of material on choosing moves in the opening, would also be a good choice at the 9k level. |
|
| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
gowan wrote: the OP is hardly a beginner; he's sdk on kgs. KGS 9k seems to be between 10k and 20k real world. Of course, there can be different definitions of "beginner"; the one I use is: DDK in the real world (except France). |
|
| Author: | lemmata [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
otenki wrote: Looking forward to hearing what you guys think... Cheers, Otenki There's nothing wrong with studying what you want to study. You are not a pro. This is a leisure activity. You should have as much fun as possible. However, I think that studying fuseki patterns in-depth as a kyu player is a one of the less effective ways to get stronger. Most people can get to 3~5 kyu easily by 1) Learning some opening principles and maybe 10 simple joseki (and a few ways to avoid the more complicated ones) 2) Doing some easy tesuji problems regularly 3) Protecting your weak groups / Don't get surrounded (This one alone might help you jump 3 ranks within three weeks if you are 9k now) If you are interested in the opening, I strongly recommend problem books rather than pattern books. "Get Strong at the Opening" is a decent one. Because it is difficult to understand fuseki theory, it is easier to build a feel for the right move through repetition. If you get a little stronger (maybe 3k?), then Fujisawa Shuko's "The Only Move" is a highly entertaining series to read. Each problem is from a pro game, so you can replay the first few moves on a board (this is helpful by itself), read the problem, think for 5 minutes, guess, and then play out Fujisawa's solution (and how he expects the game to unfold afterwards). Personal anecdotes are occasionally included, which makes it light reading. I am not sure if the book has increased my strength all that much, but it was really fun to read and can be read over and over again as one gets stronger. Again, there are better ways to get stronger, but if your intent is to have fun, "The Only Move" is a nice series to read. Also, the book may become more valuable as you get stronger. |
|
| Author: | Buri [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
Greetings, some of the best opening training around can be found in the 'opening training' lectures of the Guo Juan Internet school. Very powerful teaching in my opinion. Best wishes, Buri |
|
| Author: | gowan [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
RobertJasiek wrote: gowan wrote: the OP is hardly a beginner; he's sdk on kgs. KGS 9k seems to be between 10k and 20k real world. Of course, there can be different definitions of "beginner"; the one I use is: DDK in the real world (except France). Whatever you consider "beginner" to mean, I know people who have played go for 20 years and are still weak sdk's and with that much experience I wouldn't call them beginners. From the perspective of a top pro an amateur dan rank player might seem like a beginner. I can't remember who it was but some famous pro, in talking about a player, said something like "He's very weak, maybe amateur 5d in strength." |
|
| Author: | hyperpape [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
I believe it was Go Seigen, but I can't find a source. |
|
| Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
hyperpape wrote: I believe it was Go Seigen, but I can't find a source. That seems to ring a bell. Maybe it was Go Seigen's brother, saying of himself that he was very weak, only amateur 5 dan. (Back in the day when 5 dan was the highest amateur rank.) 
|
|
| Author: | quantumf [ Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
In my opinion and experience, if you want to get strong at go, do not study fuseki as a beginner. I disagree with the idea that any learning is better than no learning. I honestly believe that studying high level strategy, such as opening theory, is actually worse than useless because it gets you into bad learning habits and tempts you into avoiding to learn how to read, because you'll still improve (albeit slowly). Your reading ability is by far the most critical skill and without good reading you're to have a very low upper limit. |
|
| Author: | gowan [ Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
I might agree if beginner means 20k or weaker but I disagree if 9k is a beginner. And I think you are confused about reading. Plenty of reading goes on in the opening if you are playing it properly. Why else would Cho Chikun use up almost all his time in the opening and why would Kajiwara and Hashimoto Shoji play only nine moves in the first day of play in a two-day game? Yes, a 9k player isn't going to read that much in the opening but a 9k can profitably think about things like if Black plays there White will be able to take a big point. That's reading just as solving a tsumego is reading. |
|
| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
As one who studied fuseki as a beginner, let me caution against it. Instead of losing 100 games quickly, by playing the whole board you'll start winning games before you are ready. Soon you will be playing opponents who are better than you, who will become frustrated by losing to someone who does not know the basics. They will capture your stones and kill your groups, only to win the battles and lose the war. That will greatly reduce their enjoyment of the game. Soon nobody will want to play with you. They will take their stones and go home. Don't let that happen! Develop the same bad habits as everybody else. Then they will not begrudge you your victories. When you become good enough, you can start making moves they do not understand.  Seriously, there is a saying that there are 360 degrees to the martial arts. There are many paths up the mountain. The place to start is where you are. Good luck!
|
|
| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
gowan wrote: Plenty of reading goes on in the opening if you are playing it properly. What of that do you think a real world 10k to 20k must do? In particular, what of that is not covered by principles of fundamentals (i.e., not specifically of the opening) such as "Choose the big and valuable.", "Avoid bad contact plays for attack.", "Take valuable shape points."? Among the 58 principles needed to surmount that beginner level, zero are specifically about the opening. E.g., beginners might protect a gap 1 line wide instead of protecting a gap 10 lines wide. This can be cured by "Choose the big and valuable." applied to gaps. |
|
| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
Bill Spight wrote: there are 360 degrees to the martial arts. Not quite. Principles a beginner should know are violated only occasionally by real world 5k, only about once in ten games by low dans and practically never (unless in byoyomi) by high dans. The conclusion is: to become strong, a player needs to be aware of those principles. Learning them early is an advantage because it removes obstacles blocking the way to 5k or yet higher. |
|
| Author: | walpurgis [ Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is wrong with learning fuseki patterns at beginner |
I'm 4k on KGS and I only know less than 10 basic joseki, and I haven't studied any particular area of the game more than any other (meaning, I haven't overall studied much go ). Now, I'm planning on spending time with Ishida Yoshio's Basic Joseki I-III, because I feel that my lack of knowledge in the opening and how to respond to "common" moves I don't have any knowledge about are probably my biggest weakness at the moment. In other words, I regret a bit not having spent time for joseki studies earlier and I think it can be quite helpful (as long as it's not just blindly memorizing them). Like many others in this thread, I do however agree that much earlier than ~10k level the benefit of knowing joseki isn't as great as knowledge of other (more or less) basic stuff. |
|
| Page 1 of 2 | All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ] |
| Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|