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| Cutting point in 3-3 invasion joseki http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6950 |
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| Author: | PeterPeter [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Cutting point in 3-3 invasion joseki |
A position from the interesting Malkovich game #158: Probably a basic question, but why was  played here? Couldn't White play elsewhere, then if Black cut at A, trap him in an inescapable ladder by then playing that move? Why is cutting point A more important than cutting point B?
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| Author: | PeterPeter [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cutting point in 3-3 invasion joseki |
Don't worry, I have just seen it: Black can escape from the ladder by capturing the 2 Black stones! |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Peter, first of all,  (T4) was a mistake, and not joseki.The result is too good for W -- so don't learn this as a 'joseki'. Second, could you show your sequence if B cuts at (b)? This will answer your last question why W fixed (a) but not (b). |
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| Author: | PeterPeter [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Peter, first of all, (T4) was a mistake, and not joseki.That move looked odd to me, but I was giving the player (who is much stronger than I am) the benefit of the doubt. Thanks for pointing out something that I should NOT try to learn from. EdLee wrote: Second, could you show your sequence if B cuts at (b)? (This will answer your question why W fixed the cut at (a) but not at (b)). I think I have answered my own question: Black can escape from a ladder at A, but not from one at B? |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
PeterPeter wrote: Black can escape from a ladder at A, but not from one at B? It sounds like you figured out what happens if B cuts at (a).Now please show us (and other beginners) the sequence you figured out if B cuts at (b). 
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| Author: | PeterPeter [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cutting point in 3-3 invasion joseki |
Am I missing something? I don't see a good outcome for Black after  ?
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
PeterPeter wrote: Am I missing something? Yes. Your sequence fails for W if there was a B stone at C17. Try again.In other words, if we change to following board, W would still play  to fix (a), and not (b) -- why?? |
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| Author: | PeterPeter [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cutting point in 3-3 invasion joseki |
Oh I see. I don't see an escape for Black from this net: |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Very good!  Now you understand better in that game.Here is one joseki -- W also plays  to fix (a), but not (b) -- why? |
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| Author: | PeterPeter [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cutting point in 3-3 invasion joseki |
This looks very similar. White could set a net at c. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Good. Follow-up question: what about  ? Can B escape with  ? |
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| Author: | PeterPeter [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cutting point in 3-3 invasion joseki |
White would set a net with  . |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Yes -- what if B ataris with  ? |
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| Author: | PeterPeter [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cutting point in 3-3 invasion joseki |
White will connect with , then Black can escape at  (escaping at A fails after White B). White will capture with  , and I slightly prefer White's position.I had to consider a lot of variations to decide on this main line - how did I do?
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
| was bad -- try again. PeterPeter wrote: This shape is a disaster for W.
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
While you work on , here's one follow-up question about the original in the Malkovich game.W has two ways to fix that cut: tiger's mouth (right) or solid connect (left). The tiger's mouth is better. Why? Try to name as many reasons as you can. (I have to crash now! ) |
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| Author: | PeterPeter [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cutting point in 3-3 invasion joseki |
I see it now, White forces a bigger capture after .If Black captures with  , White still gains after  .
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| Author: | PeterPeter [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: :w8: was bad -- try again. PeterPeter wrote: This shape is a disaster for W. Because Black can play at A? |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
PeterPeter wrote: I see it now, White forces a bigger capture after Good! That's called a squeeze. .
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
PeterPeter wrote: Because Black can play at A? (*) Because W's shape is crushed. See:http://senseis.xmp.net/?SqueezingOutTheToothpaste and http://senseis.xmp.net/?SmallGaps (*) Also, because W should've gotten the following result -- compare the two!  |
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