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Basic moyo question
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6958		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  PeterPeter [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:33 am ]
Post subject:  Basic moyo question
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . Q . . . , . . . Q . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . O . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X W . . . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I was Black, in only about my 6th 19x19 game.

Looking mainly at the bottom half of the board:
Black started off with both the 4-4 points;
White approached each one high, with the triangle stones;
In each case, Black blocked vertically.

Now, with the bottom quarter of the board split roughly equally in terms of territory, should Black be satisfied with this outcome?

My feeling is No, since he started off strong in this area, and now it is only shared, plus White has better access to the wide open centre.

My understanding of this is very weak though, so I would be grateful for any thoughts.
Author:  DeFlow [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic moyo question
This outcome is certainly better for black, for the reasons you mentioned. In addition to fairly certain territory, the center acces provides room for development and is a lifeline if he decides to create a weak group somewhere.

If white approached high, your chance for improvement is most likely in the way you handled that approach.

I feel like you played C3 and Q3 in response, is that right? This is most likely not a good response in this situation, it is better to back off. The C3 / Q3 move works well in response to a low approach when you have a stone around K3, because the K3 stone takes away white's base and the kick (C3/Q3) defends the corner. If approached high when you have a stone around K3, then in most cases a pincer is the best response I think.

I hope my explanation is clear. ;-)
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:02 am ]
Post subject: 
Peter, if possible, please post the SGF -- the sequence matters (sometimes).
(There's already some funny shapes going on, so we might as well fix them while we're at it. :))
PeterPeter wrote:
White approached each one high, with the triangle stones;
In each case, Black blocked vertically.
Maybe some terminology mixup... you mean you replied with the diagonal moves (E3 and P3) in both cases?
Author:  PeterPeter [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic moyo question
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Peter, thanks for the SGF. Continue to play more games.
If you have the SGF for this completed game, consider posting it, too. A few notes:
Author:  PeterPeter [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic moyo question
Thanks Ed :)

I should NOT have missed those elephant eyes. I know that shape!

On move 21, why is q6 good? Because of the q4 kosumi, or to outline a moyo in that corner?

On move 23, why is a solid connection better?
Author:  PeterPeter [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic moyo question
DeFlow wrote:
This outcome is certainly better for black, for the reasons you mentioned.

Hi DeFlow,

Do you mean it is better for White?
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:36 am ]
Post subject: 
For :b21:, for now, just get an idea for Q6, for this shape.
For :b23:, if W ataris next at O1, and you connect at P2 -- look at this resulting shape:
if you had connected directly at P2 on :b23:, and now if W plays O1, would you play Q2? :) (One reason.)
PeterPeter wrote:
...so I would be grateful for any thoughts.
Continue to play more games; post the SGF of this entire game if you like. :)
Author:  DeFlow [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic moyo question
Oh, of course. ;)
Author:  Boidhre [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic moyo question
PeterPeter wrote:
I should NOT have missed those elephant eyes. I know that shape!


It takes ages to go from "I knew that shape!" to always seeing it when reading. It's rather annoying! :)
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:57 am ]
Post subject: 
Boidhre, you're improving. :)
Author:  Boidhre [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
Boidhre, you're improving. :)


Haha. :D
Author:  PeterPeter [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
post the SGF of this entire game if you like. :)

I can't; it's too embarrassing :oops:

It went steadily downhill, the majority of which was tactical errors, and I can understand them on playing it back. This wide-open-board stage was the part of the game where I felt most lost.
Author:  jts [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
PeterPeter wrote:
EdLee wrote:
post the SGF of this entire game if you like. :)

I can't; it's too embarrassing :oops:

It went steadily downhill, the majority of which was tactical errors, and I can understand them on playing it back. This wide-open-board stage was the part of the game where I felt most lost.

Don't be embarrassed. Seriously. In my first game on kgs we forgot to mark a 30 pt group as dead.
Author:  PeterPeter [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
For :b23:, if W ataris next at O1, and you connect at P2 -- look at this resulting shape

I see - White gets to play O1 almost as a free move.
Author:  hyperpape [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic moyo question
The upper right corner is a bit baffling. After white pincers, black's move is odd, and after that, I have no idea what either side should play. See http://senseis.xmp.net/?44PointLowAppro ... eLowPincer
Author:  Splatted [ Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basic moyo question
It's not just beginners that make stupid mistakes. I recently forgot I was in the middle of fighting a 30 point ko and played a 2 point endgame instead. What's even worse is that we were still firmly in the middlegame and it would have been a terrible move regardless. :oops:
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