illluck wrote:
That's not an empty triangle...
Really? Thanks for correction.
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| How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while reading http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7221 |
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| Author: | ivanzypher [ Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while reading |
Hi, I played a game on KGS and won against a 14kyu, just by 4.5 komi. After the game, after I took a deep breath and had some post-match euphoria, I began berating myself as usual. I berated myself because of silly mistakes (allowing the opponent to atari my 2nd-line stone(s) seems to be a trait that hounds me at the moment), and because of my tendency to tenuki when my positions are ripe for invasion (instead of solidifying the stones), I looked back on lovelove's advice about reading being by far and away the most important skill. My reading is beginner at best, and I want to improve it. I can tell when positions are better for black or white (obviously), and I tend to have a 'feel' for where to look for to solve a life and death or tesuji problem. My problem comes when I lose the reading after about 5 or 6 moves, unless it is a strong pattern (like walking or ladders). So, although the skill may be internalised to most of you lifein19x19ers, I was wondering: What are the types of visual actions that your eyes and brain use to achieve pattern-retention? In other words, how do you 'see' the patterns when you look ahead? For example, instead of memorising 'I go there, he goes there, I go there' etc etc, I have been trying to memorise the change in shape of groups, and it has helped me 'remember' where stones are when looking ahead a bit better. So it's not 'I go there', it is 'that group is now a 4-stone wall, that group is now an empty triangle, that group is now connected to that group'. Another method that (I forget the username) someone has used is instead of remembering visual groups or single stones, they take note of the change in empty points between groups, and what colour the stones are on the borders of these diminishing lumps of empty-points. It's an interesting topic. I can foretell that the most popular response is going to be 'you improve your reading by practice'. But how do you actually 'see' the board while you read out patterns? |
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| Author: | Splatted [ Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
I think trying to remember anything is going about it the wrong way. My reading is pretty awful, but I get much better results from trying to visualise the changing board situatiion. I'm still doing the "he goes there I go there" thing, but instead of looking at the board and trying to remember which intersections have which colour stones on them, I make a mental image of the (local) board position and add stones to that. |
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| Author: | lovelove [ Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
ivanzypher wrote: My reading is beginner at best, and I want to improve it. I can tell when positions are better for black or white (obviously), and I tend to have a 'feel' for where to look for to solve a life and death or tesuji problem. My problem comes when I lose the reading after about 5 or 6 moves, unless it is a strong pattern (like walking or ladders). So, although the skill may be internalised to most of you lifein19x19ers, I was wondering: What are the types of visual actions that your eyes and brain use to achieve pattern-retention? In other words, how do you 'see' the patterns when you look ahead? For example, instead of memorising 'I go there, he goes there, I go there' etc etc, I have been trying to memorise the change in shape of groups, and it has helped me 'remember' where stones are when looking ahead a bit better. So it's not 'I go there', it is 'that group is now a 4-stone wall, that group is now an empty triangle, that group is now connected to that group'. Another method that (I forget the username) someone has used is instead of remembering visual groups or single stones, they take note of the change in empty points between groups, and what colour the stones are on the borders of these diminishing lumps of empty-points. It's an interesting topic. I can foretell that the most popular response is going to be 'you improve your reading by practice'. But how do you actually 'see' the board while you read out patterns? Everything is practice, play lots of go and solve tons of tsumego, you will gradually not "lose the reading after about 5 or 6 moves" Empty triangles are not always a bad shape. It can also be a very strong and think shape. See diagram below. |
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| Author: | illluck [ Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
lovelove wrote: ivanzypher wrote: My reading is beginner at best, and I want to improve it. I can tell when positions are better for black or white (obviously), and I tend to have a 'feel' for where to look for to solve a life and death or tesuji problem. My problem comes when I lose the reading after about 5 or 6 moves, unless it is a strong pattern (like walking or ladders). So, although the skill may be internalised to most of you lifein19x19ers, I was wondering: What are the types of visual actions that your eyes and brain use to achieve pattern-retention? In other words, how do you 'see' the patterns when you look ahead? For example, instead of memorising 'I go there, he goes there, I go there' etc etc, I have been trying to memorise the change in shape of groups, and it has helped me 'remember' where stones are when looking ahead a bit better. So it's not 'I go there', it is 'that group is now a 4-stone wall, that group is now an empty triangle, that group is now connected to that group'. Another method that (I forget the username) someone has used is instead of remembering visual groups or single stones, they take note of the change in empty points between groups, and what colour the stones are on the borders of these diminishing lumps of empty-points. It's an interesting topic. I can foretell that the most popular response is going to be 'you improve your reading by practice'. But how do you actually 'see' the board while you read out patterns? Everything is practice, play lots of go and solve tons of tsumego, you will gradually not "lose the reading after about 5 or 6 moves" Empty triangles are not always a bad shape. It can also be a very strong and think shape. See diagram below. That's not an empty triangle... |
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| Author: | lovelove [ Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
illluck wrote: That's not an empty triangle... Really? Thanks for correction.
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| Author: | ivanzypher [ Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
Splatted wrote: I think trying to remember anything is going about it the wrong way. My reading is pretty awful, but I get much better results from trying to visualise the changing board situatiion. I'm still doing the "he goes there I go there" thing, but instead of looking at the board and trying to remember which intersections have which colour stones on them, I make a mental image of the (local) board position and add stones to that. Hi Splatted  I'm sorry, you've made me a bit confused :p You say that trying to remember anything is going about it the wrong way... But surely we have to remember, i.e. commit changes to memory, in order for us not to forget what the previous move (i.e. change) was, and so on, in our reading, right? I agree with trying to visualise the changing board situation. When you say make a mental image of the local board position and add stones to that (instead of trying to remember which intersections have which colour stones on them), could you expand on that a bit? How is adding stones to a local board position different? Do you mean all at once and then try to work out a sequence which tries to accomplish that? |
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| Author: | jts [ Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
ivanzypher wrote: Splatted wrote: I think trying to remember anything is going about it the wrong way. My reading is pretty awful, but I get much better results from trying to visualise the changing board situatiion. I'm still doing the "he goes there I go there" thing, but instead of looking at the board and trying to remember which intersections have which colour stones on them, I make a mental image of the (local) board position and add stones to that. Hi Splatted I'm sorry, you've made me a bit confused :p You say that trying to remember anything is going about it the wrong way... But surely we have to remember, i.e. commit changes to memory, in order for us not to forget what the previous move (i.e. change) was, and so on, in our reading, right? I agree with trying to visualise the changing board situation. When you say make a mental image of the local board position and add stones to that (instead of trying to remember which intersections have which colour stones on them), could you expand on that a bit? How is adding stones to a local board position different? Do you mean all at once and then try to work out a sequence which tries to accomplish that? I think he's referring to superimposing imaginary stones on the board itself, while focusing on the board, versus manipulating imaginary stones on an imaginary board which is, as they say, "in your head". This might seem like a distinction without a difference, but, for example, if you're playing around with a board "in your head," then it won't be affected if you close your eyes, or look the other way, or if you spin the board around, etc. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
lovelove wrote: Empty triangles are not always a bad shape. It can also be a very strong and think shape. See diagram below. Err, that is a turn. This is what is meant by an empty triangle: |
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| Author: | lovelove [ Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoodEmptyTriangle 
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| Author: | xed_over [ Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
lovelove wrote: http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoodEmptyTriangle http://senseis.xmp.net/?TheEmptyTriangleIsBad |
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| Author: | golem7 [ Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
ivanzypher wrote: My reading is beginner at best, and I want to improve it. I can tell when positions are better for black or white (obviously), and I tend to have a 'feel' for where to look for to solve a life and death or tesuji problem. One short remark: If your reading ability is lacking, so is your ability to judge the board. You mustn't view these two as separate things. For a good evaluation you need to know the status/strength of groups, see weak points and cuts and how they can be exploited for profit. The same with life and death. It's not enough to have a "feel". Accurate judgement demands that you know. The basis for all of that is reading, that's why it's so important. So yes, practice, practice, practice 
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| Author: | snorri [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
ivanzypher wrote: My problem comes when I lose the reading after about 5 or 6 moves, unless it is a strong pattern (like walking or ladders). Well, you're doing okay, then. If you can consistently get 5-6 moves deep with accuracy throughout an actual game, that's enough to be about 5 kyu. |
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| Author: | Phoenix [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
jts wrote: I think he's referring to superimposing imaginary stones on the board itself, while focusing on the board, versus manipulating imaginary stones on an imaginary board which is, as they say, "in your head". This might seem like a distinction without a difference, but, for example, if you're playing around with a board "in your head," then it won't be affected if you close your eyes, or look the other way, or if you spin the board around, etc. golem7 wrote: One short remark: If your reading ability is lacking, so is your ability to judge the board. You mustn't view these two as separate things. For a good evaluation you need to know the status/strength of groups, see weak points and cuts and how they can be exploited for profit. The same with life and death. It's not enough to have a "feel". Accurate judgement demands that you know. The basis for all of that is reading, that's why it's so important. So yes, practice, practice, practice I know exactly what he's saying, and jts is on the money I think. It's not about judging the board; it's about keeping your hallucinatory stones on the board. Look at a board and place a simple ladder formation on it. Just the 4 stones gripping the one. Clearly it works but you can read it out. And since it only has one variation, it's very easy to read. But can you remember where each stone is after 20-30 moves? If you read a fighting variation in-game, can you keep the final board position in your head and 'see' follow-up moves (or even more variations) from it? Can you keep the final position of each of the stones from two different variations and compare them accurately in regards to the whole board? If I take my time I can probably read at a dan level. But there's no way I'm going to remember where I placed each stone in my mind. From the way they talk about the game, it's clear that strong players do this. I'd be curious to know if there's a specific way to work on this sort of 'positional stone retention' in reading. |
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| Author: | snorri [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
If the forums can bear yet another chess reference, this has been studied in chess, especially in the context of multiple simultaneous blind chess games. The players who can do that rarely report any kind of vivid visualization of the board. More often, it's very abstract. If you are looking for exercises, then I know of one from Janice Kim 3p. Just find a life-and-death problem that's normally something that you could solve on the board, but don't look at the board at all. Just imagine the position in your mind and carry it around with you mentally, trying to solve it completely. What you choose is up to you, but maybe depends on your level. For kyu players, this might be some kind of common corner position like one of the L or J groups. Not too many stones, but some variations. You may know the status, but that's not the point. The point is that you get comfortable with this. For example, what's the situation with this position? (Yes, I'm not specifying the sides. That's part of the exercise. )Warning: do not attempt this while driving a car, operating heavy machinery, or when you are supposed to be listening to your S.O. |
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| Author: | Phoenix [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
snorri wrote: If the forums can bear yet another chess reference, this has been studied in chess, especially in the context of multiple simultaneous blind chess games. The players who can do that rarely report any kind of vivid visualization of the board. More often, it's very abstract. People do simultaneous blind chess games?!?  I like the exercise. Bit headachy but most worthwhile things are. I do strongly believe there's a difference between reading a sequence to its end and keeping the position and shapes of the stones in mind. As evidence, I would like to name ishi no shita (under the stones) as exhibit A. 
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| Author: | jts [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
snorri wrote: Warning: do not attempt ... when you are supposed to be listening to your S.O. Yes, a simple problem like this won't last you nearly long enough. I suggest replaying through a few games. |
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| Author: | Splatted [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
ivanzypher wrote: Splatted wrote: I think trying to remember anything is going about it the wrong way. My reading is pretty awful, but I get much better results from trying to visualise the changing board situatiion. I'm still doing the "he goes there I go there" thing, but instead of looking at the board and trying to remember which intersections have which colour stones on them, I make a mental image of the (local) board position and add stones to that. Hi Splatted I'm sorry, you've made me a bit confused :p Lol, sorry it was the middle of the night  Honestly though, I think my lack of clarity may be partly caused by my lack of understanding of what good reading is, so don't give too much weight to what I say. I might not have commented at all except that your description of how you read sounded very like how I used to do it, and I have found that to be a very difficult way of doing things. ivanzypher wrote: You say that trying to remember anything is going about it the wrong way... But surely we have to remember, i.e. commit changes to memory, in order for us not to forget what the previous move (i.e. change) was, and so on, in our reading, right? I agree with trying to visualise the changing board situation. When you say make a mental image of the local board position and add stones to that (instead of trying to remember which intersections have which colour stones on them), could you expand on that a bit? How is adding stones to a local board position different? Do you mean all at once and then try to work out a sequence which tries to accomplish that? The reason I say you don't have to remember where you placed a stone is because it should be part of the image you've created i.e. You should be seeing the board as if there is a stone there. It's very hard to describe how this is different from looking at the board at trying to remember where there are stones and/or what shapes they form, because back when that's what I was doing I actually thought was visualising it. Here's an example that may or may not make this easier to understand. You're white and you want to tenuki here, but you want to know if black can live if you do. (You don't need to bother solving the problem if you don't want to) Black can create a ko like this: With my old method of reading that would look like this: Step 3: Step 4: I don't know if that is what you were doing, but I would often work read things out this way, and then have difficulty remembering where I had placed stones and what colours they were. Instead, I think it's better to read things like this: Step 1: Step 2: Step 3: Step 4: If you do it like this then it's not an issue of remembering where you've played, but rather of maintaining the image in your head. It's difficult, but since the stone you added 4 moves ago is just as much a part of that image as the stone you've just added, it removes the need to remember where you've played. (For me at least, it's still not as clear as looking at a position once it's been played out though.) I think snorri's recommendation to attempt problems without looking at the board is a good one, because it's basically how I stumbled upon this kind of reading (I was attempting to read out variations in my Malkovich game while not at the computer), but I think that's just for practice and it's still okay to look at the board when reading because that's what pros seem to do. Sorry for the excessively long post. I hope I haven't made things more confusing.
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| Author: | Li Kao [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
One thing I do to train my visualization is playing games on small boards(such as 5x5) against myself in my mind, trying to read it out completely, just like a go problem. |
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| Author: | TheBigH [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
I have recently started playing out josekis in my mind. This helps me visualise the positions of several stones at once. I also try to think about the meaning of each of the joseki moves, and try to work out how to punish deviations from the joseki. That has been good for my reading. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do you 'see' and retain stone positions while readin |
Problem: Reading: Edit: You can't like your own post. But I like this one.
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