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| Ok to reverse sandbag ? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7334 |
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| Author: | otenki [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
Hey, On tygem everybody is always sandbagging. And I really like this because I get to play strong players even. Howhever lately I have created a 5D acount on tygem to learn more. Do you guys think it moral to reverse sandbag like that given that people sandbag the other way around also on this server ? Cause of course I don't want to piss of stronger players  Cheers, Otenki |
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| Author: | Boidhre [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
I think it'd be very annoying for stronger players expecting a good even game. |
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| Author: | topazg [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
I think a lot of players would find it rude. If I play a 5d, I woud quite like to be playing a 5d  Imagine if you played 15 other 5d players who were your strength because they'd done the same thing? a) It wouldn't do what you wanted, and b) it rather defeats the point of the rating system, no? 
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| Author: | Splatted [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
I second what Boidhre and Topazg said. It's something I've also been tempted to do but I resist. If I thought they'd want to play me I'd be challenging them to games with my regular account, so I figure the need to create another account is proof that I shouldn't. Edit: Does anyone know if they have some kind of system to stop this happening? I imagine they could block IPs that do it regularly, but I'm not sure how they'd identify them. |
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| Author: | topazg [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
PS I may not be a Tygem 5d, but I'm still more than happy to play anyone that thinks it would be worth it if you see me online... |
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| Author: | cdybeijing [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
I have from time to time created a 3 dan account on wbaduk to challenge myself when I am realistically only 2 dan there. Nevertheless, the step up is not so much that I can't win a game. Going from 9 kyu to 5 dan is a bit silly though, I doubt you will even learn as much as you think you will. |
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| Author: | CnP [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
It's no more rude than the usual sandbagging imo. Having a positive attitude towards the usual is fine but I don't see how either is more justified. When I play a 8k I'm looking forward to an honest game too |
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| Author: | TheBigH [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
I think it's not right to deceive people for your own benefit. The culture of Go is one of honour and quiet dignity, and reverse sandbagging (can we call it "helium ballooning"?) is as much an affront to that as regular sandbagging. If you want to learn from a 5D, ask one for an even teaching game. |
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| Author: | Boidhre [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
CnP wrote: It's no more rude than the usual sandbagging imo. Having a positive attitude towards the usual is fine but I don't see how either is more justified. When I play a 8k I'm looking forward to an honest game too With regular sandbagging the person being sandbagged has a chance to learn something. With reverse sandbagging this is highly unlikely. This makes it far more rude in my opinion. |
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| Author: | DeFlow [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
I don't approve of this at all, for the same reasons as Boidhre states. And by the way Otenki, when you have the connections it can't be hard to find an (even) game with a stronger player can it? Lifein19x19, connections, hmmm... Seems to be some connection there. |
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| Author: | CnP [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
I agree, but anyone who thinks they're doing me a favour with that sort of behaviour is off the mark. The extent I learn from those games is a) feel like an idiot and get depressed b) my reading sucks. I didn't ask for the lesson so the deceit is the key thing that defines the rudeness for me. |
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| Author: | illluck [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
Contrary to most responses above, I actually don't see a major issue with it as long as you play reasonably quickly and resign when you can see the game is lost. Some opponents might even appreciate it as they will have an easier time to keep their rank/go to next rank. |
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| Author: | Dokuganryu [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
I would add such a person to ignore list after the game for sure. I value my time, and such person would waste it, so I wouldn't want to have anything to do with him/her ever again. |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
Slightly off topic, but I think there must be a problem with tygem's ranking system if a kyu player can maintain a 5d ranking for any amount of time. How many losses does it take for your account to drop ranks? |
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| Author: | Eizero [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
In your last 20 games, you need 15 wins to rank up. 15 losses to go down. If you rank up, your last 20 games are cleared. I think if you win like 19 times in a row or lose a certain number of times in a row you can go up or down 2 ranks. |
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| Author: | Dokuganryu [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
Tygem has probably the best available ranking system. It will take something like 20 straight lost games to fall to 3d, another 18-20 for every other two ranks (considerably longer if one could win at least 5 games, but we are talking about situations when win has more like 0,01% of probability). |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
Gorim wrote: Tygem has probably the best available ranking system. It will take something like 20 straight lost games to fall to 3d, another 18-20 for every other two ranks (considerably longer if one could win at least 5 games, but we are talking about situations when win has more like 0,01% of probability). That doesn't sound like the best available ranking system to me. Many rating systems have a notion of rating confidence: if a player doesn't have many recent games, their rank shifts more quickly. If a player claims to be 5d but has no wins at 5d, they could drop to 4d in 2 or 3 games. |
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
emeraldemon wrote: Gorim wrote: Tygem has probably the best available ranking system. It will take something like 20 straight lost games to fall to 3d, another 18-20 for every other two ranks (considerably longer if one could win at least 5 games, but we are talking about situations when win has more like 0,01% of probability). That doesn't sound like the best available ranking system to me. Many rating systems have a notion of rating confidence: if a player doesn't have many recent games, their rank shifts more quickly. If a player claims to be 5d but has no wins at 5d, they could drop to 4d in 2 or 3 games. But what some people value above all else in rating systems is transparency, and Tygem has that. |
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| Author: | topazg [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
I've started to really appreciate Tygem's system. I probably prefer IGS' in some ways, although I'd make a few modifications to increase the granularity of the increments. I prefer both now to KGS' system. |
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| Author: | otenki [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ok to reverse sandbag ? |
Let me ease your mind by telling you that I have stopped doing this In the mean time I have more than 20+ lost games on my track as 3d on tygem and none won Maybe I will quickly share my experience in those 20 games. So my goal in these games is usualy to keep alive while trying to get more than i should aka by fighting. Of course they can read better. I ended up resigning pretty quickly and then reviewed my moves and tried to understand why my positions got compromised. I analysed my shapes (most likely this was the problem) and looked for reading mistakes. What I noticed though is that it felt to me like a 5d does not have that much of better complete strategy. (although this probably is a serious illusion ) It seemed to me like what is the difference between me and them was shape and reading. In the mean time I have also played a buch of 3k's and a 1d on kgs which offered me a teaching game which was fun. I think in time I can learn the same things I learned from playing reverse sandbag games on tygem by playing teaching games on kgs. I'll miss it but I know its not the right thing to do. Cheers, Otenki |
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