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New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7505		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Lyzl [ Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
Hi everyone,

I'm fairly new to Go, but have slowly fallen more and more in love with it over months and years. At first I only learned the rules and ignored the game, but as I played a game here and there, I gradually deepened my study. However, I find there's been one big psychological barrier I've been held back by, and its hit many of my friends too.

Its simply that it's very nerve-wracking and often not fun to play games online. There's no breaks, short time limits, often no conversational tone. It's an intense battle, and since my friends and I love studying a lot, we feel as though we should win more and more often. Of course this isn't true, and intellectually we realize this, but the emotional impact is the same.

Now, we got to talking, and I'd like to see what people here think of our possible solution to this strange emotional problem. Of course, we admit that simply playing a few hundred games and getting used to losing is one solution, but ours is another.

In a game we play online, League of Legends, progression is split into two phases:
(1) the standard elo system, which is similar to kyu/dan in that players go up and down in strength and it's shown by a ranking.
(2) the leveling system, from 1-30 (how natural to Go!) which consists of leveling upwards regardless of wins or loss, though wins bring more experience towards the next level than losses.

This second (2) phase is what interests us most. See, we loved playing, win or loss, while in this phase because it always meant progression. On Go servers, I'm always nervous a loss will lower my ranking. I understand that ranks are still crucial for handicaps, but maybe there's a way to integrate a reward system on servers that promotes constant play, win or loss? Even just the ability to fully conceal one's ranking so as to not think about it (League of Legends does this for unranked games, where it knows your elo rank, but it is hidden from you though it is used to automatch).

Has anyone seen or heard of any Go servers implementing alternative systems to play in an effort to mitigate too strongly competitive minded play?
Author:  CnP [ Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
Hi, I can understand the stress of online games - but I don't think leveling up would be useful though. Imagine a game between a 30kyu player who has played 1000 games but not improved (maybe they have a disease of the brain, or just like clicking away and never learn anything ... ) and a 1Dan player who has also only played 1000 games. It would make no sense to have them play an even game. Sure, you could have a race to be the first amongst your friends to get to 1000 games but it wouldn't make sense to use anything other than the win/loss ratio to give rank, i.e. skill.

For stress, I suggest playing some light hearted music in the background, just keeping playing and gaining experience (the stress does decline) or perhaps consider turn based Go server such as DGS or OGS.

oh, and welcome to L19!!
Author:  Lyzl [ Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
haha I do play awful "energetic" pop music to get me in the mood. Oh sigh, it's such a strange comfort.
Author:  topazg [ Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
@Lyzl, yes, I know just what you mean. I have very much wanted to see something like this - I first had it planned for OGS when I made it but it was always too low down the priority list, and then in turn for the ASR. Sadly, real life has taken too much of my time and energy, but I'd love to see something like this as I share the passion for relaxed leveling up / progression type activity that works so well in standard video games.
Author:  CnP [ Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
Yeh I used to play Kylie Minogue when I first started playing. :D

Actually having time to think about it, & I don't play other online games so maybe I misunderstood. However the kaya.gs server, which is fairly new has a Karma system,

"What is Karma?
Karma is a way for you to acknowledge someone's contribution, or just charisma.
You can give it only once a day! Pick your recipient carefully."

and it seems that could be a way of leveling up without affecting your ranking. I haven't played much on kaya.gs so I'm not sure how it works tbh.
Author:  Lyzl [ Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
that sounds great CnP! I must check out that server. Just looking for anything to curb my anxiety haha
Author:  Shaddy [ Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
I don't like the idea of having to 'level' a second account if I want one for slow games or silly fuseki or something like that. I can't imagine it'd be much fun for the hundred beginners I'd stomp on the way up either.
Author:  topazg [ Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
Shaddy wrote:
I don't like the idea of having to 'level' a second account if I want one for slow games or silly fuseki or something like that. I can't imagine it'd be much fun for the hundred beginners I'd stomp on the way up either.


I wouldn't see the levelling as access to anything particular, other than bragging rights really. It's the feeling of progression for no other reason than superficial progression :P
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
You might try some of the multi-player Malkovich games. There is lot of discussion about the moves, and lots of time to think. ( The down side is that because so many people are invoved, they are hard to organize, and they are often abandoned when one or more members has to take a break for real life. ) I don't know if there are any active right now. There are sign-up threads in each of the forums, I think.

Teamovich: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=2198 and viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3062

Gang Malkovich: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3464

Big brother Malkovich: viewforum.php?f=30
Author:  jts [ Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
Lyzl, could you say more out of what you want out of Go levels? As far as I can tell, levels in games are either for giving special powers that make the game easier, or they're for matching two 6d (or whatever) to make an even match. But you can't really give white the special fireball ability without ruining go...

Araban a long time ago talked about having achievements to unlock, as on Starcraft. That would be fun, but probably a lot of work for little practical benefit.
Author:  zslane [ Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
I think "leveling up" purely as a consequence of playing (i.e., rewarding participation, not just achievement) makes sense in games where experience invariably adds to skill despite poor performance, particularly early on. Video games are excellent platforms for this paradigm because most of the important skills are easily acquired, they just take some time and experience "behind the wheel" to acquire them. Anything that tempts players to simply put in the time practicing in the battlefield is worth implementing because it is almost surely going to lead to skill improvement, even if they don't "study" the game (say, via strategy guides or online forum discussions) in parallel.

I don't think this is necessarily true for games like go, chess, shogi, xiangqi. It is quite possible, and maybe even quite common, for players to experience hundreds of hours of game play and acquire little to no skill improvement along the way. I don't see much benefit, particularly a psychological one, to being a "30th level" patzer rather than a "3rd level" patzer. I'm still going to get crushed by most players, and having "30th Level" next to my user name in the online player list is only going to make me feel pretentious.
Author:  palapiku [ Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
Implement this for KGS [-] accounts!!
Author:  lobotommy [ Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
Hi Lyzl

Just try to think that every game you play is a lesson, not a match, not something competitive, not something so important you need to prove yourself or to others how good you are. Just play more friendly games, no ranking ones. And think about learning while you play. Especially when you lose a game it means your opponent just gave you a free lesson. I hate to lose a game, but I love to learn something new every time my opponent proved that my technique was worse than his. It's great to learn new things :)
Author:  quantumf [ Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
zslane wrote:
I don't think this is necessarily true for games like go, chess, shogi, xiangqi. It is quite possible, and maybe even quite common, for players to experience hundreds of hours of game play and acquire little to no skill improvement along the way.


This is generally untrue, at least for the early stages. From complete beginner, you usually "level up" pretty swiftly specifically from playing and getting used to how the shapes develop and discovering ladders, etc. Not for nothing is there a proverb "lose your first 50 games as quickly as possible"
Author:  Lyzl [ Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
I think for me personally, it has a lot to do with the anonymity and seriousness of games online.

recently, I've played more games where I chat about my moves to my opponent, and I know that isn't completely 'competitive' but it really calms me down and turns the game into a friendly match and lesson with learning on both sides. There is something about the hollow "hi, gg" signed at the beginning of each game and final, crushing "thanks" that just makes the whole experience a bit of a shell of real life Go to me.

Voice chat, long time limits, and things like kaya's 'karma' system are things I think I'd be interested in. Maybe when I get deeper into my online play, quick and dirty games will be more reasonable, but I do enjoy the whole structure, calm, and flow of Go, and would like that to spill into my virtual games. :)
Author:  daal [ Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
Gadzooks! Nobody has mentioned the ASR! ('cept topazg who sadly doesn't have time for it). The ASR is a league that runs both on KGS and kaya. Although it doesn't perfectly or exactly implement the OP's excellent idea, the way it works is that you play unranked games against anyone in your class, and every game brings you points (more if you win). At the end of the month, those with enough points move up to the next higher class.
So while this isn't what the OP was looking for, it offers him the chance to play unranked games (and there's always a benefit from playing stronger players) to get points for playing, and the chance to move up in the league. As a side benefit, many games end with a review, which provides you with one of the best tools for improving. And...it's absolutely free!
In any case, the ranking system is a beast with which you will invariably have to grapple as a go player. While the OP's idea would offer a softer entry curve, the tried and true model is based on the concept "no pain, no gain" and it's not going away any time soon.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
Well, a real beginner learns and improves even when she loses. How to incorporate that into a rating system? Maybe by counting losses as partial wins, depending on the number of games played.

Even beginners start at different levels. Assume that the rating system finds an approximate kyu rank, R, after, say, 10 games, between 30 kyu and 10 kyu. Let G = 10*(R - 10), rounded to the nearest integer. (If R < 10, don't bother.)

Now if the player wins a game, it counts as a full win, +1; if he loses a game, it counts as G/100 - 1, only being a full loss, -1, if G = 0. So if R = 30, G = 200, and a loss counts as +1, a full win. If R = 20, G = 100, and a loss counts as 0, a tie.

After each game, decrement G, until G = 0, or the rating reaches SDK.

When G > 100, which could be the first 100 games, a player is rewarded for playing, win or lose. When G > 0, the cost of a loss is diminished.

Such a system reduces rating volatility for DDKs, and gives their ratings a positive bias, which is desirable, IMO. :)
Author:  billywoods [ Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
Lyzl wrote:
There is something about the hollow "hi, gg" signed at the beginning of each game and final, crushing "thanks" that just makes the whole experience a bit of a shell of real life Go to me.

You are not alone there. Some players are just more talkative than others - daal and topazg mentioned the ASR (= Advanced Study Room, but don't let the name put you off...) which I typically find to be a little more friendly than standard rooms on KGS. KGS also has the "KGS Teaching Ladder" room, which has fallen into disuse a little, but I still find it generally very friendly.
Author:  xed_over [ Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
and don't forget, that this forum has its own room on KGS: Lifein19x19.com (Room List -> Clubs)
Author:  lemmata [ Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New way to cultivate good beginner attitude?
Lyzl wrote:
On Go servers, I'm always nervous a loss will lower my ranking.

You may like OGS, which is a turn-based server. The ranks are neither important nor accurate over there. However, rankings are not important to finding games at all. In my opinion, the following are among the killer features of OGS.

  • Many huge "title" tournaments that anyone can join, where you are guaranteed to get around 6-7 games at minimum (more if you keep winning). They have prizes even for people who don't win the title. They even have 9x9 tournaments.
  • Ladder competitions: You can challenge anyone with a higher "ladder position" than you do and they have to accept if they want to keep their ladder position.

You can even set up a tournament just for your friends. If you feel nervous about games, another option is to keep solving tsumego. Your only opponent is yourself in that case.

That said, I think that there is an unhealthy culture of worshiping strength in communities that play games that are perceived to be intellectual exercises. Not everyone is affected by it, but I think that beginners feel it, even if they don't see it manifested explicitly. You can avoid feeling bad by practicing some mind control and finding a group of people who make good go buddies.
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