It is currently Tue May 13, 2025 11:49 am

View unanswered posts | View active topics View unread posts | View new posts | View your posts


Board index » Life In 19x19.com General Topics » Beginners

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]



Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 11 posts ] 
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
Offline otenki
 Post subject: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #1 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:18 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 415
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Liked others: 43
Was liked: 32
Rank: EGF 2k
Universal go server handle: tygempanda
Okay so someone from my local go club and me have been working ourselves through "jump level up" series.

For those who don't know it: http://senseis.xmp.net/?JumpLevelUp

We howhever have a problem with one of the problems in the book:
You need to capture white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


The answer is fairly straight forward:
I've put it in hide tags if someone wants to try to solve it :-)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 3 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . 1 . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


This is all fine but we have a problem with this variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


Resulting in...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 5 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


Are we missing something or is this problem wrong ?

Thx,
Otenki
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #2 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:57 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
Was liked: 2076
GD Posts: 312
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]

This post by EdLee was liked by 3 people: betterlife, otenki, SoDesuNe
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline otenki
 Post subject: Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #3 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:44 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 415
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Liked others: 43
Was liked: 32
Rank: EGF 2k
Universal go server handle: tygempanda
Thanks, that seems to solve it! :-)
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline newmorning
 Post subject: Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #4 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:46 am 
Beginner

Posts: 2
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
Rank: 3k
When white connects with 4 above black 3 instead of the hane, he wins the capturing race i think
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline HermanHiddema
 Post subject: Re:
Post #5 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:28 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 2011
Location: Groningen, NL
Liked others: 202
Was liked: 1087
Rank: Dutch 4D
GD Posts: 645
Universal go server handle: herminator
EdLee wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c How now?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline msgreg
 Post subject: Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #6 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:40 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 294
Liked others: 47
Was liked: 94
Universal go server handle: MSGreg
EdLee solution for Black 3 seems better, the original "Results in" seems ok to my beginner eyes. Can someone explain why this is bad? White can't approach either group without self atari, and if/when white tenuki's, Black at "a" seems to kill.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 5 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


To answer HermanHiddema's conundrum, seems
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c How now?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]


I'm a beginner, so I'm just speculating with my DDK eyes. Thanks for letting me try. what am I missing?

_________________
Founder, Central Mississippi Go Club
Free tips and resources for clubs and teaching
Go Kit Club Pack - pack of 13x13 go sets for clubs
Go Tin - very portable go
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline otenki
 Post subject: Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #7 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:46 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 415
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Liked others: 43
Was liked: 32
Rank: EGF 2k
Universal go server handle: tygempanda
msgreg, the problem is white can capture. So that variation is for sure not good for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 8 O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | 0 X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 5 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 3 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]

This post by otenki was liked by: msgreg
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #8 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:51 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1348
Location: Finland
Liked others: 49
Was liked: 129
Rank: FGA 7k GoR 1297
msgreg wrote:
EdLee solution for Black 3 seems better, the original "Results in" seems ok to my beginner eyes. Can someone explain why this is bad? White can't approach either group without self atari, and if/when white tenuki's, Black at "a" seems to kill.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 5 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]


To answer HermanHiddema's conundrum, seems
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c How now?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 6 . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------------[/go]


I'm a beginner, so I'm just speculating with my DDK eyes. Thanks for letting me try. what am I missing?

How about:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Problem
$$ -------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 1 O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | 3 X O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X O X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Offending ad removed
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline logan
 Post subject: Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #9 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:11 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 641
Liked others: 142
Was liked: 438
GD Posts: 9
The books have a few more incorrect problems -- about 1-2 per vol. I've circled all the incorrect problems, however only vol. 3 is with me right now. If you're interested I can post all the erratas in a few weeks when I get a hold of the books again.

Vol. 2
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3. Black to play
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O , . . . . . , .
$$ | . X O . O . . O . . .
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Book solution:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3. Book solution
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 4 X X . . . . . .
$$ | . O X O 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . X O 2 3 . . . . , .
$$ | . X O 1 O . . O . . .
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Correct solution:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm1 3. Solution 1, :w4: @ :bt:
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 6 X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 8 2 X X . . . . . .
$$ | 7 O Y O 5 . . . . . .
$$ | . X O 3 9 . . . . , .
$$ | . X O 1 O . . O . . .
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

This post by logan was liked by 2 people: illluck, newmorning
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline newmorning
 Post subject: Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #10 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:58 am 
Beginner

Posts: 2
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 0
Rank: 3k
That would be great Iogan!
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline otenki
 Post subject: Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Post #11 Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:31 am 
Lives in gote
User avatar

Posts: 415
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Liked others: 43
Was liked: 32
Rank: EGF 2k
Universal go server handle: tygempanda
Yeah it would be great to document, you could do it here or on http://senseis.xmp.net/ ?
Not sure which is the best spot for it.

Thanks!
Otenki
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 1 of 1
  [ 11 posts ] 

Board index » Life In 19x19.com General Topics » Beginners

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group