Life In 19x19 :: Not correct tsumego ?

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Not correct tsumego ? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7810	Page 1 of 1

Author:	otenki [ Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:18 am ]
Post subject:	Not correct tsumego ?
Okay so someone from my local go club and me have been working ourselves through "jump level up" series. For those who don't know it: http://senseis.xmp.net/?JumpLevelUp We howhever have a problem with one of the problems in the book: You need to capture white. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Problem $$ ------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| X X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -------------------------------------[/go] The answer is fairly straight forward: I've put it in hide tags if someone wants to try to solve it Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Problem $$ ------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . X O 3 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| X X O . 1 . X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -------------------------------------[/go] This is all fine but we have a problem with this variation: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Problem $$ ------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| X X O . 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -------------------------------------[/go] Resulting in... Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Problem $$ ------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| X X O 5 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O 6 . 7 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -------------------------------------[/go] Are we missing something or is this problem wrong ? Thx, Otenki

Author:	EdLee [ Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:57 am ]
Post subject:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	otenki [ Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Thanks, that seems to solve it!

Author:	newmorning [ Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Not correct tsumego ?
When white connects with 4 above black 3 instead of the hane, he wins the capturing race i think

Author:	HermanHiddema [ Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re:
EdLee wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . X O . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ --------------------------------------[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c How now? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ --------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	msgreg [ Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Not correct tsumego ?
EdLee solution for Black 3 seems better, the original "Results in" seems ok to my beginner eyes. Can someone explain why this is bad? White can't approach either group without self atari, and if/when white tenuki's, Black at "a" seems to kill. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Problem $$ ------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| X X O 5 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O 6 . 7 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -------------------------------------[/go] To answer HermanHiddema's conundrum, seems Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c How now? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O 6 . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ --------------------------------------[/go] I'm a beginner, so I'm just speculating with my DDK eyes. Thanks for letting me try. what am I missing?

Author:	otenki [ Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Not correct tsumego ?
msgreg, the problem is white can capture. So that variation is for sure not good for black: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Problem $$ ------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| 8 O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| 0 X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| X X O 5 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O 6 . 7 3 9 . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	tj86430 [ Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Not correct tsumego ?
msgreg wrote: EdLee solution for Black 3 seems better, the original "Results in" seems ok to my beginner eyes. Can someone explain why this is bad? White can't approach either group without self atari, and if/when white tenuki's, Black at "a" seems to kill. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c Problem $$ ------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| X X O 5 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O 6 . 7 3 a . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -------------------------------------[/go] To answer HermanHiddema's conundrum, seems Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c How now? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . X O 4 O O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| X X O 3 1 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O 6 . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ --------------------------------------[/go] I'm a beginner, so I'm just speculating with my DDK eyes. Thanks for letting me try. what am I missing? How about: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc Problem $$ ------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . O . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| 1 O O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| O X X O O X . . , . . . . . , . . . \| $$ \| 3 X O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| X X O X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . O O . X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ -------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	logan [ Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Not correct tsumego ?
The books have a few more incorrect problems -- about 1-2 per vol. I've circled all the incorrect problems, however only vol. 3 is with me right now. If you're interested I can post all the erratas in a few weeks when I get a hold of the books again. Vol. 2 Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm1 3. Black to play $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . X X . . . . . . $$ \| . O X O . . . . . . . $$ \| . X O , . . . . . , . $$ \| . X O . O . . O . . . $$ \| . O X X O . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]` Book solution: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm1 3. Book solution $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . 4 X X . . . . . . $$ \| . O X O 5 . . . . . . $$ \| . X O 2 3 . . . . , . $$ \| . X O 1 O . . O . . . $$ \| . O X X O . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]` Correct solution: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bm1 3. Solution 1, @ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . 0 . . . . . . . . $$ \| . 6 X . . . . . . . . $$ \| . 8 2 X X . . . . . . $$ \| 7 O Y O 5 . . . . . . $$ \| . X O 3 9 . . . . , . $$ \| . X O 1 O . . O . . . $$ \| . O X X O . . . . . . $$ \| . O . . . . . . . . . $$ ----------------------[/go]`

Author:	newmorning [ Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Not correct tsumego ?
That would be great Iogan!

Author:	otenki [ Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Not correct tsumego ?
Yeah it would be great to document, you could do it here or on http://senseis.xmp.net/ ? Not sure which is the best spot for it. Thanks! Otenki

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