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beginner joseki question
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Author:  otenki [ Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:05 am ]
Post subject:  beginner joseki question
I was watching a game between duskeagle and lovelove where duskeagle was afraid of this (2).
That seems to be joseki but looks very ugly and wierd shape to me.

Can someone explain me what 2 would be trying to do ? What is the purpose of this move ?

Is it just to complicate matters ?

I have looked at some joseki variations on eidogo.com but it feels as if 2 only gets yourself into trouble. You end up with two groups to look after while your oponent can still gladly jump into the corner.

Sorry for my beginner question ...

Thanks,
Otenki

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner joseki question
ALA White's upper group has the miai of C17 or J17 to live, White can concentrate on defending his second group.

2 is easier for White if D4 is white.

2 wants to make the black group overconcentrated in bad shape, but the move is just a relatively modern joseki move. Regardless of whether some online sources are outdated, related joseki sequences you find in the modern literature.

If you are afraid of being cut, you should not play go:) (Proverb.) In particular, it is possible to install another group (here: the second white group in this corner).
Author:  lovelove [ Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner joseki question
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Usual board position with this joseki.
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Joseki 1 Black 'a' is sente.
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . X . a 7 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Joseki 2 Next, white 'a' black 'b'.
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 0 b 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 9 X a O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 8 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Joseki 3 (1)
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 8 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Joseki 3 (2) White sometimes tenuki move 13.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Joseki 4 Next white extends around 'a'
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X 0 O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . 9 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Considered good for black.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Incomplete joseki
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 This one, too
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


[edit]
I made a bad mistake in the last few diagrams. I've adjusted them now, but please check the diagrams again for the people who is new with this message.
Author:  Solomon [ Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner joseki question
otenki wrote:
What is the purpose of this move ?

Is it just to complicate matters ?
I'd like to proclaim that I play this move due to some particular global/local situation, but truthfully I just play it because the 3-3 response is boring.
Author:  Uberdude [ Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner joseki question
otenki wrote:
What is the purpose of this move ?


Play on both sides.
Author:  emeraldemon [ Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner joseki question
Here's a few pro game examples to give some full-board context:
Author:  otenki [ Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner joseki question
Thank you all for the great replies, I played it yesterday and it worked out pretty well.

Intresting!
Otenki
Author:  otenki [ Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner joseki question


I just played a horrible game where I tried this joseki. Howhever my oponent replied with a nobi up.
Is my response correct ? I had a feeling the result was really bad.

If I responded wrong, what would be the correct one ?

Thanks,
Otenki
Author:  Uberdude [ Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner joseki question
o18 2nd line hane is correct: it is the key shape point. But your p16 is bad. I guess you wanted to make him connect at p17, but even if he does what does this move achieve for you? It hurts your own liberties. It is not like black is going to play p16 himself to make a false eye anytime soon. Instead I would just r16 nobi towards corner which makes some eyeshape for you and also prevents black from making 2 eyes in the corner, so then as he runs you can profit on both sides.

P.S. When he lives in the corner and you cut his outside it's playable for you I think. But you seemed to get obsessed with playing very close to his cutting group. Just back off and extend on the sides, leaving black with some junk in the middle.
Author:  otenki [ Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: beginner joseki question
Uberdude wrote:
o18 2nd line hane is correct: it is the key shape point. But your p16 is bad. I guess you wanted to make him connect at p17, but even if he does what does this move achieve for you? It hurts your own liberties. It is not like black is going to play p16 himself to make a false eye anytime soon. Instead I would just r16 nobi towards corner which makes some eyeshape for you and also prevents black from making 2 eyes in the corner, so then as he runs you can profit on both sides.

P.S. When he lives in the corner and you cut his outside it's playable for you I think. But you seemed to get obsessed with playing very close to his cutting group. Just back off and extend on the sides, leaving black with some junk in the middle.


Indeed that sounds very logical.

Thanks Uberdude !

Cheers,
Otenki
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