As a beginner trying to get through some full-size games to get some good practice and experience, how long would you recommend I spend on each move?

Playing moves quickly would certainly get through the games quicker, but at some point it becomes a little random, you make tons of mistakes and you are not doing enough reading or giving things proper thought.

I could quite easily spend 15 minutes on each move, often changing my mind about a move or seeing some fresh insight in the last few minutes of that time, but is it worth trying to think too deeply as a ddk? It also means games slow down to a crawl.

_________________
Regards,

Peter

When I play at the club, a game will usually take between an hour and 90 minutes.

_________________
Poka King of the south east.

In my Go-club my games are rarely finished under 90 minutes. But well, we do talk sometimes in between - so it's not like a tournament ^^

_________________
My "guide" to become stronger in Go

I think my average for games is in the 2-3 hour range. Far too long, in my opinion. There is thinking time, then there is sitting there "beating-a-dead-horse" thinking time, which I have a tendency to do.

At the club I used to attend, it actually got pretty bad with a number of very slow players. I'd end up at club and only get one game in for a 4-5 hour club session.

My recommendation: no reason to rush and play nothing but blitz games, but keep a decent pace. I think the hour to 90 minutes is a pretty good pace for games. Part of learning this game is to know when to spend that 15 minutes thinking over one move; and knowing when you should just respond quickly. (I'm still learning this!)


Nothing wrong with a laid back atmosphere. If your club is like SoDesuNe's, no reason to make it a rush. Enjoy the experience! Have fun with friends! Just play more Go!

_________________
KGS: schultz [?].

I recommend, at the DDK level, an average of 10 sec. per move. Then a 19x19 game would take between 30 and 45 min.

I remember when a Korean 5 dan visited our club and, seeing SDKs take 2 hr. on a game, asked, "Why do they take so long, when they have nothing to think about?"

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

How do you follow up your games at present? If you play slowly, how do you go back and determine whether your thoughts were fruitful or not? Are you able to review them with stronger players? A big problem as a beginner is that if you spend a long time choosing between 'A' and 'B', all that thinking time may be wasted because you should really be thinking about the area around 'C'. We like to think that this problem is lessened through experience and study, but living in Tokyo I have had many a pro point out that it certainly hasn't disappeared in my case...yet!

It is better to play relatively rapidly at the ddk level, IMHO. You do need to think about alternatives, but basically you need to then choose one sooner rather than later, and see how it works out. Are you able to recall all the alternatives that you considered during a game when you review it afterwards? If not, then most of that thinking time was probably wasted in terms of your learning experience. As a ddk most of what you consider in evaluating 'A' vs. 'B' will not be played out, since your opponent will deviate anyway. If that were not the case, you wouldn't be a ddk! At the same time this is another problem that will not go away as you move to SDK and SDD. Even pros suffer from this, which is why competitions are so exciting.

But don't take it personally! "For amateurs, thinking time is dream time." shogi pro Aono Teruichi

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

Meh, I think we may be overstating the importance of quick games versus slow games. I don't want to disagree with Bill or ez4u, but just last night I had a teaching game with a player whose complaint was something like "I've spent a decade playing, four games a week, why am I still DDK?" Now, I looked at a few of his games and at first I was offering advice on this and that, but then after he told me he had been playing for a decade, I went back to the beginning of the game, because I had a strong hunch as to what I was going to find.

He took 3 seconds for his first move. 2 seconds for his second move. Four seconds for his third move. Et cetera, et cetera, around he made a very serious error and paused for a whole ten seconds. And then went back to 2-5 second moves. Was this a blitz game? No, he had 25 minutes on the clock and 30 second byo-yomi. The game ended after 200 moves and he still had twenty minutes left on the clock. This is not the first time I've seen something like this. When I convinced him to play a slow game and use his time, he was rather startled by all the things he could see in the position.

Now, who knows if he is going to suddenly start improving. But I don't think "Play quickly" is good universal advice for beginners. People should probably try both ways and, if they're playing on KGS, they should choose appropriate time settings, so that they are being pressured by the clock, and not by some inner metronome that is pushing them blindly forward. There is a point between being too rigid and being too relaxed where your mind is tense - in the sense that the strings on a well-tuned instrument are tense - and you are able to focus on what is important and ignore what isn't important. I suspect that for some people, that tension fosters learning.

There is a huge difference between 10 sec. per move and never reviewing your games or solving problems and playing 10 sec. per move games and doing those things as well.

Hmmm. 100 moves in 300 sec. (5 min.) comes to 3 sec. per move. IMO there is a big difference between 3 sec. per move and 10 sec. per move. I agree with your advice to him.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

@jts

Please reread the original post... "I could quite easily spend 15 minutes on each move, often changing my mind about a move or seeing some fresh insight in the last few minutes of that time, but is it worth trying to think too deeply as a ddk? It also means games slow down to a crawl."

I do not see this as a another thread on the usefulness of playing blitz. Please do not hijack it. Thanks in advance for your consideration of this point.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

Okay, great! Yes, we're all agreed, the ideal time per move is something less than 15 minutes. Hell, I will go out on a limb and say that it is less than 10 minutes per move.

When I started playing online as a double-digit kyu, I played 30 mins per side plus 5x30s byo-yomi. Now, as a 2d, I still pick time settings between 20-30 mins main time and around 5x30s byo-yomi. I would say just enter into a game with an initial timer set to whatever you feel like and then just use your time however you feel comfortable using it within that time limit. It's more important to just play rather than spend time worrying about the ideal circumstances to play under.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

At least 30 seconds. The upper bound really is up to you and depends on the context. If it is a casual game that you are playing frequently to train yourself, then I would suggest that 1 minute per move is probably more than enough for a beginner/DDK player. The key is to think as hard as you can in that 1 minute. It is helpful to have reasons and choices that you can remember for review. Based on what I have seen of others, and from my own personal experience, kyu players make a ton of mistakes that come from not reading ahead 3 moves, 2 moves, or even 1 move! One has to learn how to walk before one can run.

If both players spend >= 30sec on each move, and a game has 240 moves, it will take at least two hours. That's quite long for a beginner, IMHO. (1 min / move average would mean four hours, which is horribly long)

_________________
Offending ad removed

If a round number is better, I'd use an hour. If it's not a problem, 45 minutes. For the full game.

These are numbers for beginners, as it might change when you get stronger. But try to play games around these limits.

Tournaments are a different thing, though. In those you should adapt. You don't want to play much slower than your opponent, as you're giving him thinking time, and likely not using yours well enough, but you alsodon't want to play too fast as to miss things.

_________________
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go

Peter, listen to Bill.

I agree with Bill's point, but I don't really care for the Korean 5 dan's comment. It sounds a little arrogant to me. Even if you're weak, you have things to think about.

In regard to the OP, I think it's useful to try to get a lot of experience. That's how playing fast will help you. But I think that as long as you feel your thinking time is being productive, it's not harmful, provided your opponent doesn't mind.

Thinking for awhile about a board position, and then seeing the result from it can be very rewarding, regardless of how good it is for your go.

Still, as others have said, it's good to get a lot of experience by playing faster, too. There's a book called "The Art of Learning", where the author says his best moves in chess were ones where he spent a medium amount of time thinking - extra thinking time helped, but after a certain point, additional thinking time was not beneficial.

But I think you have to identify where this line is yourself.

_________________
be immersed

It looks like around 15 seconds per move seems sensible, and also gives a reasonable game time.

My reason for taking longer is that if it takes me that long to recognise something I have been studying, then that is practicing that knowledge, and it should come to me much quicker next time. If you always play too quickly, your game stays at a superficial level ("Am I in atari anywhere? No? OK, randomly extend from one of my stones..."). It's trying to find the right balance.

_________________
Regards,

Peter

I don't think that's fair, either. I wonder if his English has got more or less fluent since he first started learning it?

_________________
Regards,

Peter

Peter, yes, that's OK.