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midgame joseki worth learning ?
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Author:  otenki [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:46 am ]
Post subject:  midgame joseki worth learning ?
Hey guys,

I would like to get better at invading, reducing and basicly midgame in general.

I don't know the invasion points, because of this I just have to create aji at certain cost an use it to invade.
When I study pro games I almost never really see a lot of invasions in the generic sense because they always over complicate things. (so I feel like I cannot learn this from pro games as I'm not yet strong enough)

For example, there is a ogeima from starpoint... how to invade ?
For example, there is a big framework. What are the completion points of this framework and what is the timing to jump in where ?

I find this all very hard.

So I wonder if learning midgame joseki like for example different type of invasion would help me here.

Like studying "Get strong at invading" ?
Or some other book ?

I'm especially interested to hear from the stronger folks here, how did you learn to do this ?

From reading a book ? From playing lots of games, from pro games ?

Thx,
Otenki
Author:  EdLee [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:24 am ]
Post subject: 
otenki wrote:
I find this all very hard.
Exactly. Me, too.

For me, mostly from many game reviews with a good teacher.
(And of course, from playing many games; experience, trial-and-error, etc.)
Some of the (common) things that show up (repeatedly) in the reviews:
- when to invade (too early; too late; just right);
- where to invade (or reduce; or, no need at all -- jealous/greedy/wrong assessment of situation, etc. );
- how to invade (tactics, tesuji, shapes, life-and-death, cap race, etc.... all the basics);
- the mid-game is very difficult, yes. :)
(All the above apply to both sides: so from the reviews I learn from both my moves (good & bad) and my opponent's (good & bad). )
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: midgame joseki worth learning ?
otenki wrote:
I would like to get better at invading, reducing and basicly midgame in general.


I think you should at first focus on Tesuji (attacking and defending) and opening (direction, especially with frameworks involved) problems because they deal with a lot of this. Middlegame Josekis have the same downside as with every Joseki: You might start to play without thinking because it's Joseki. Better first to learn the fundamentals regarding shapes and their weaknesses (Tesujis) and when/why to invade (opening problems) first. I guess =)
Author:  Uberdude [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: midgame joseki worth learning ?
I found the chapter in Yilun Yang's "Fundamental Principles of Go" on invading common formations very useful. There's also Iwamtoto's "Keshi and Uchikomi: Reduction and Invasion in Go" which I've dipped into but I can't say that's responsible for what I know. And then there's the general learning process of bits and bobs over the years from games, reviews, lectures etc.
Author:  schawipp [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: midgame joseki worth learning ?
otenki wrote:
...
I find this all very hard.

Welcome in the club... ;-)

otenki wrote:
So I wonder if learning midgame joseki like for example different type of invasion would help me here.


I can speak only for myself. In my games, I repeatedly realize the following:
- I fail with some highly speculative invasions and later realize that I was equal or even better in territory before I started the invasion. Thus, playing just reductions and/or some sente endgames would have secured the game for me, while the actual game got lost due to my failed invasion.
- Sometimes I am successful with an invasion, but in the review it turned out, that it was easily killable (my opponent just didn't find the right answer).
- When looking at pro-games some invasions "magically" come to life, since some arbitrary-looking attachments later act as ladder-breakers just in time or some sequences of forcing moves suddenly end with double-atari or two eyes popping out from nowhere etc. I would like to reproduce such "magic" sequences in my games but currently it is very difficult for me to read them out.

In summary, I think there are no standard "joseki" sequences for invasion available, since it highly depends on the surrounding stones and potential weaknesses located around. Thus, I think training on the following areas would help most:

- Counting (Is an invasion required at all? About half of my losses can be attributed to poinless invasions, while I was already leading)
- Reading (Endless story... ;-))
Author:  Koroviev [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: midgame joseki worth learning ?
Attack and Defense by Davies and Ishida, apart from being a fantastic book generally, has a whole chapter in which invasions into three-space extensions are treated pretty exhaustively, in joseki-book style.

I found the chapter a bit out of place myself, but it sounds like something you might be looking for.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: midgame joseki worth learning ?
Sakata's classic, Tesuji and Antisuji of Go, is still quite good in this regard. :) Many of the examples are joseki.
Author:  otenki [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: midgame joseki worth learning ?
Seems like with everything in go, there is no right answer to this question.
Instead lots of little answers which will all help me a little step at a time.

Thanks for the inspiration guys, I'll try some of the tips out ;-)

Otenki
Author:  Phoenix [ Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: midgame joseki worth learning ?
Another idea on the subject of timing:

Aside from deciding the right time to invade/reduce, the right point and the right method, etc., it's very important to create your own opportunity. I would lose a lot of games because I was playing to build up both positions, only to have my opponent then protect his own territorial framework. I was then left with no good follow-up.

This is where reading and learning the value of moves comes into play, as well as playing to maintain sente at important times. Before your opponent gets to solidify his position, it's good strategy to not only foresee how the flow of play might lead to a necessary invasion as well as knowing how to make exchanges that are both sente and mutually beneficial before invading on your own terms.

All other factors considered into your plan, adding the element of foresight and playing in relation to your aim of a later invasion will steer you away from some of the grosser blunders and dramatically increase your chances of success. :D
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