I started playing go about 2 years ago. Even though I have risen to the low kyus, I often still feel very much like a beginner at this game. Sometimes I talk with players who rank significantly lower than me, but seem to be much more knowledgeable about the game of go. So the question is where do you see the line between beginner and non-beginner? What are the milestones that are important to you?

Well, I don't typically use "beginner" when someone has been doing something for any length of time, regardless of their skill level. So I guess the line for beginner is some arbitrary length of time. It would obviously vary based on activity. For a board game like go? Maybe 6 months would be the "beginner" line for me.

When it comes to go, I learned how to play over 8 years ago. Even though I was very inexperienced when I started playing again in college, I wouldn't have called myself a beginner even though I hardly knew anything more than basics like how to set up ladders and my only theory knowledge was "corners-sides-center." To a more experienced player I was probably a lot like a beginner, but since I'd known about the game for so long and had played a number of games I wasn't really a beginner. Go didn't really feel "new" to me.

Now, I learned how to play Shogi earlier this year and have played exactly 8 games against people and 5 against computer AIs (along with several against myself). I would definitely consider myself a beginner there even though I know a lot about the terms and such from watching a series of YouTube videos on the game. I know how to set up some basic castles (Mino and Yagura) and I know traditional rules for starting a game and some game principles that total beginners would not know, but Shogi still feels new to me. I only learned it around March and played my first game against a person in May.

Obviously this is totally subjective, but "playing for two months" seems like a beginner's statement to me. Whereas "playing for 2 years" doesn't sound like a beginner's statement to me.

If you want to go with "beginner" as a skill level rather than simply being about a length of time, I guess I would gauge how well you play against a new player. A beginner seems like a person who is still definitely learning the game - they are likely to make mistakes that a new player might recognize. For me, the biggest shock in improving my play came when I realized I could no longer play at full strength in 9x9 games against new players. I tried this twice and both times my opponent had no stones left on the board by the end (which is not a good way to motivate someone to play another game, so don't do this).

As a 3 kyu this should be no problem for you. You might even be able to do that to some of the lower ranked players who seem more knowledgeable than you. So if you play at full strength against a new player and totally annihilate them at the game, are you really a beginner?

That being said, you can feel like a beginner long after you stop being one. Go is unlike most games in that there is an enormous gradient of skill. Whenever you face a stronger opponent - a much stronger opponent - you notice how little you know. But that doesn't mean you are a beginner, it simply means you have a lot to learn. Even 9 dan pros sometimes feel they have a lot to learn. In fact, some 9 dans will comment on how knowing that much about the game just makes them realize how little they actually know.

I can understand this. In many ways the stronger I have gotten, the more I feel like I don't know what I'm doing.

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"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

What is the purpose of such a line?

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be immersed

I one time debated with a friend about the difference between a pebble, stone, rock, and boulder. After that we debated what defined a twig, stick, and log.

We spent nearly half an hour discussing these things.

Humans like lines and clear definitions.

Okay, maybe not humans so much as nerds, but still...

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"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

In my experience, such classification is made to produce a distinction between categories.

In this case, is it needed?

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be immersed

It's rooted into our sensory specialties and the way our society functions. We love to make distinctions, partly because distinctions are what helped us eat the good berries and not the ones that killed John yesterday, partly because intelligence is highly valued and the appearance of intelligence is based largely in semantics and the ability to voice such distinctions.

And regardless of your environment and life situation, one needs to excel to get ahead, or even to survive. Excelling involves specialization, and distinctions are one way to get ahead. For example, while I have to look at a new board position for a while to get an idea of what the situation is like and produce a mediocre analysis, Cho Chikun can make a much more detailed, complete and accurate analysis in under ten seconds. He's learned to perceive the stones in a way that the necessary information is compiled easier and more efficiently.

I crushed many strong badminton players largely on my ability to make small distinctions in all areas of their game and take full advantage of the information thus gathered. A child living in poverty in some parts of the world needs to make many small distinctions to pick out a good mark to rob. A medical doctor can look at an x-ray and see a hundred things our eyes don't even pick up. Pablo Picasso could make extraordinary distinctions about size and depth in his visual field.

It's closely linked to our humanity. Cats, for example, don't process their visual input the way we do. They don't differentiate very much between a mosquito, a moth or a laser pointer. All they really know is that something small is moving around quickly. Where they lack in distinction, however, they make up for in tracking ability. They evolved to follow fast movement and react to it. There's no way we can compete in that regard.

It's also largely social. The Russian language has words for colors English speakers don't distinguish. To us it's just 'blue' or 'green' or sometimes 'cyan' or 'magenta'. On the flipside, there are Native American tribes which were very content with only three words with which to describe the entire visible spectrum of light. Ask one of them to distinguish between a wood-brown or blood-red color spread apart in time and they will simply be unable to.

It's late and I digress (quite a bit). My distinctions are a bit fuzzier, though I don't consider myself a beginner by a long shot. I rather use the word 'inept' to describe myself in regards to Go.

I stopped calling myself a beginner long before I crossed over into the single digit kyu range because some of my friends were offended that I could give them a 13 stone handicap and still beat them, having learned the game about the same time. (I was probably around 15k at the time). If I was a beginner, then what were they?

Interesting. A member of our go club had this exact same realization after beating his friend with 13 stones. (He was also around the 15k level)

I have never had the honor to play someone with 13 stones against me. Every player I know finds the concept of the 13 stone handicap to be insulting and won't play with more than 9.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves

There are go books aimed specifically for beginners (especially if you look at Chinese go problem books). When those books start looking easy to you, you are no longer a beginner
For myself, once I hit SDK, I felt I was no longer a beginner, but there is still a wall for me to conquer to reach dan which is where I would see myself as starting to be competent.

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http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

Maybe I'm wierd but I never stopped feeling like a beginner.

I think I will always feel like a beginner, even when I should get to higher ranks.

tchan001: indeed, one of the first series I bought was: http://senseis.xmp.net/?WeiqiStepByStep ... lemsSeries
It's really bad description of beginner

Cheers,
Otenki

well, for myself, I also never stopped feeling like a beginner.. I just don't call myself one

You are a beginner if you think you are: pure and simple.

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Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).

In my opinion a distinction needs to be made. Is the OP's question more philosophical or down to earth? If philosophical, even the strongest professional can say that he really *feels* like he's only a beginner as he knows there's so much more that even he can't see in a game. In this case, the question becomes kinda irrelevant.

Usually, though, that question is asked in the more practical sense. For example, a non-go player might ask how good you are at go:
You: Just a beginner.
Him: But you know the rules, right? And you're steadily improving?
You: Yes, but...
Him: And you can give big handicaps to some people on a regular basis?
You: Yes, but there are people who are still three times stronger than me!
Him: So unless you're a master you consider yourself a beginner? What of those who can't compare to even you?
...

You stop being a mere beginner somewhere around 15-10 kyu range at the latest. It's true, Shusaku's spirit once told me

Sometime between "learning the rules" and "never" ("never" being inclusive).

Really, it depends on context, as it is a relative distinction. If you are 15k, chances are you don't need to attend a "go for beginners" class at, say, a Go Congress. When I first went to a go club and said I was "about 14 kyu," the club manager introduced me as a "beginner." Yet, Graded Go Problems "for Beginners" volume 4 still gives me some trouble.

Are any of these wrong? Nah. (Though, the Graded Go Problems series has caused confusion before.)

I don't know. I'll let you know when it happens

When you lose the Beginner's Mind. But it is not necessarily a good thing.

If we limited your activities to those that are necessary, none of us would be participating in an online forum about a board game. The reason for this discussion is not to find a consensus or establish precise definitions, but to share our thoughts and experiences with each other for our mutual enjoyment and edification.

I'm KGS 1k/2k and feel I have no clue about the game. I know there is so much more to learn - and I hope it will never change.

What do you mean by "in this case"?

For communication purposes, I understand someone wanting to know what people understand "beginner" to mean. So the person knows, for example, whether to call himself a "beginner" or to go to a "beginner's" go class.

I think the answer is pretty obviously "it depends." There are communities in which such terms are generally understood--even if the term isn't absolute, one could describe what it meant in most cases. But that isn't so with the broadly defined and diverse "go community." Do we need a more precise definition? If this is what you meant, I think I agree with you. Sure, it would be "useful" to have a precise, widely adopted definition of "beginner," but far from necessary.

That said, the discussion about general thoughts/feelings and contexts in which the term comes up is perfectly natural.

When the Nihon Kiin gives you a certificate suggesting otherwise.