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| High handicap and the way White plays http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9153 |
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| Author: | tynan [ Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | High handicap and the way White plays |
I have been going to a local Go club for the past month and a half or so, and most of the regular players there are SDK, with two or three Dan level players. One of them said something interesting during a game: "Let's see, if I play an honest move, versus dis-honest..hmmmm..." I asked him what he meant by that. He pointed to the board and said, "Well, in a high handicap game such as this, White will sometimes play a move that he would never otherwise play, and he could get away with it because Black is almost certainly not going to respond correctly to it. In other words, dis-honest play means that White counts on Blacks in-experience in order to take advantage of him, by playing a move that he would never, ever get away with against a non-beginner, even one of DDK level." This made me wonder about how many SDK/Dan level players out there actually play like this? Is it normal for these players to think to themselves, "I'm going to count on the fact that Black doesn't know his ass from his mouth, so that by the time he realizes his dire position, he will be crushed completely." I like the idea of "honest" play. I'm glad he mumbled loud enough for me to hear. |
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| Author: | Mike Novack [ Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
Misunderstanding of the term getting translated as "honest" in this context. Look at what a handicap is or means. If after a handicap both players made equally good moves the player with the handicap would win easily. As a result, the stronger white player must make what are in effect "overplays". If the black player always lets the white player get away with that will lose, but that is completely relevant to learning go. Remember, even if playing against somebody of equal skill if you determine that you are behind your (real, honest) choice is between resignation (to the loss, you could continue playing it out in hopes that the opponent will blunder)or to begin making overplays (perhaps not immediately, timing is still important and may need to prepare the ground for that counter-attack). So the stronger player making overplays isn't out of place in teaching. OK, "trick plays" maybe shouldn't be indulged in so much (not exactly the same as overplays) but the weaker player eventually needs to learn these. heck, an equal opponent might well stumble into one of those by accident as some of them look good (or look like more gross overplays than they are). Keep in mind that when your opponent makes an overplay (of the sort usual in a handicap game) this might or might not be an overplay against an immediate response. Again, timing to "punish" the overplay or omitted move might be critical. In go, the opposite of "honest" isn't "dishonest" but something like "too loose". |
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| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
Mike Novack wrote: Misunderstanding of the term getting translated as "honest" in this context. Look at what a handicap is or means. If after a handicap both players made equally good moves the player with the handicap would win easily. As a result, the stronger white player must make what are in effect "overplays". White does not need to overplay at all. The difference in skill level means that black will be making mistakes. White can play calm, reasonable, honest moves, then punish mistakes by black, and thereby win a handicap game. I make it a point to avoid overplays as much as possible when giving handicap, and I consider it a bad habit. Not only are you getting yourself in the habit of playing unreasonable moves, you're also teaching the weaker player, by example, that certain moves are good when in reality they are bad. |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
I try to make larger extensions and less familiar shapes in handicap games than in even games. In ranked handicap games, I'll also make invasions which don't quite seem reasonable as well. I'm generally not thinking "My opponent sucks, he'll lose to this," but rather, "I'm behind, I have to play to catch up." I think I have the same attitude I have when I'm behind in an even game. In a teaching game, I'll still tend to make larger extensions than usual, but I don't make unreasonable invasions as much. I play more normally and see how the student handles it. Though I will occasionally make a move with a clear refutation as a method of setting up a sort of test for the student. |
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| Author: | Boidhre [ Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
There are psychological traps I think for both sides. Black can play more passively than normal because they fear a fight with White, thus giving White too much in every exchange. White can try too hard to force mistakes (especially early on) and end up playing too thinly or whatever and Black not responding passively when presented with so many weaknesses in his opponent's shape. As the handicap gets higher the pressure to fall into either gets bigger, as players get stronger they tend to not fall into these traps so much. Usually anyway, in my experience. |
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| Author: | Mike Novack [ Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
By now hopefully the original poster understands that in this context the opposite of "honest" isn't "dishonest" but "loose" (trying to get more than reasonable at the price of leaving a defect behind). Like when somebody says "I didn't make an honest effort" they (probably) meant not "I cheated" but "I didn't try as much as I should have". Go is a subtle game with lots of aspects to be learned. I disagree that in teaching the stronger player should just make honto moves and wait for a mistake. Yes there are stages of learning where that is appropriate but there are also stages beyond that point. See, that a defect has been left behind doesn't mean that it should be punished immediately and in fact, that might be a very bad thing to do. When that stronger player said "doesn't know how" he was probably also including with that "doesn't know when". Because the right time is only after more urgent moves and bigger moves have been made. Meanwhile (until then) there is the opportunity for play beginning in other parts of the board to cover the weakness left behind, to remove that bad aji while the other player seeks to choose moves that keeps the opportunity alive. Learning when to do something is a vital part of go. Just "how" is not enough. You will see even top level players sometimes not making the honto move, not because they are behind and the only chance, but because of the opportunities for influencing the play in some other part of the board. There are also differences in how we learn, what we learn, in what order. Some of us quickly learn to be solid, not make gross mistakes. Our weakness is to be too passive, failing to attack when a weakness has been left. Or not knowing how to properly attack that weakness (how to profit from the attack). Others of us are too careless and leave weaknesses behind, which even if not fatal might allow significant loss of profit. A suggestion? Translating terms might not be a good idea if it leads us to think about the meanings of the word chosen to be the translation (in contexts different from go). When we keep to using the original language term, since we don't know the language, only its meaning within the game of go has been learned and we don't get misled by the words possible other meanings. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Mike Novack wrote: ...make honto moves... Mike Novack wrote: ...not making the honto move... It's honte 本手, which means "proper move".Mike Novack wrote: ...in this context the opposite of "honest" isn't "dishonest" but "loose"... Moves are in a continuum, including:
So it's odd to talk about "the opposite of honte". |
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| Author: | Unusedname [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
What I know about handicap games as white is, try not to complete a position. Keep as many areas loose/unfinished as possible and let your opponent choose where to play in the wrong order. As the stronger player you will have a better idea of which side is more urgent. But after seeing a few high handicap games I realized you can also create solid positions/create groups with life. and then take advantage of your opponent playing too close to the thickness. I used to think overplays were necessary in handicap games but now I disagree with that idea. |
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| Author: | Bantari [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
Mike Novack wrote: In go, the opposite of "honest" isn't "dishonest" but something like "too loose". I don't think this is what the dan player meant in this case at all. In this context, I would say that 'honest move' stands for 'the best move you can make, objectively' while a 'dishonest move' stands for 'not the best move you can see, but the trickiest one.' In handicap games, the latter strategy often is more successful than the former. Or, at least - personally I have better results with it (as in more wins and by higher margins.) If this is 'good' or desirable - I don't know. Its fun, for sure. You can certainly also win making only 'honest' moves... most of the time. It is worth noting that in this context, 'honest' does not mean 'honte', so these two terms should not really be mixed up here. Even if honte is sometimes trnaslated as 'honest move' or 'proper move' - this has absolutely nothing to do with what the OP was talking about, I think. |
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| Author: | Bantari [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
As a side-note, my trusty internet says 'honto' means 'truth', while 'honte' means 'shame'. Any comment from language mavens? |
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| Author: | Mike Novack [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
"In this context, I would say that 'honest move' stands for 'the best move you can make" Disagree, at least as I've seen the term used. When a high level player says something "that move is honto but this move has more potential to affect the coming battle over the center (and makes the latter move) he or she clearly thinks the move chosen is better but was distinguishing from honto. I think honto has more of a "locally correct" and/or "not leaving a defect" sense to it. |
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| Author: | Boidhre [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
I've always heard the honest/dishonest contrast being used in the same sense as reasonable and unreasonable moves. Just the latter being more used when playing someone close to your own strength. |
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| Author: | oren [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
Just to correct the terminology in the thread, it is "honte", not "honto"... 本当にこの本手の話は難しい。 |
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| Author: | Bantari [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
Mike Novack wrote: Bantari wrote: "In this context, I would say that 'honest move' stands for 'the best move you can make" Disagree, at least as I've seen the term used. When a high level player says something "that move is honto but this move has more potential to affect the coming battle over the center (and makes the latter move) he or she clearly thinks the move chosen is better but was distinguishing from honto. Well, its not about how you've seen this term used but how it is used this time. I still think you are wrong on this one, even if generally you might be slightly more correct. Quote: I think honto has more of a "locally correct" and/or "not leaving a defect" sense to it. Not sure we are talking about the same thing here. The usual Go term is 'honte' not 'honto'. Is that what you are talking about? If so, you are pretty close, I think, but you should read up on that nevertheless. To address some of your previous statements - an opposite of 'honte' is not 'loose' but more of a 'vulgar' or 'flawed'. I don't know what the go term 'honto' is when referring to Go. Anybody? Is it the same as 'honte'? |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
Probably Mike heard this in the context of something like "honto no te", because in that context, it's about the same. The distinction between 本当の手 (honto no te) and 本手 (honte) is small, because 本当 (honto) can mean proper. The argument here is kind of silly, because I feel it's like English speakers trying to argue over whether they should say, "This is proper" vs. "This is a proper move". The only thing I'd keep in mind is that the "te" is needed to give information that you're referring to a move. Other than that, both words have connotation of "proper", "appropriate", etc. That being said, I think it is more common to say honte when you are referring to a honte move, since this word precisely fits the purpose. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
People do talk about being too honest as White in a handicap game, but in Japanese they use the word, shoujiki, not hontou. Honte is a different concept. When I started playing go I was much better at taking handicaps than at giving them. My play as White was too honest, too straightforward, too simple. White needs to keep the game from being too easy for Black. IMO, it is not necessary to play trick plays in order to do that. But you can't be too honest, either. 
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
Here is a six stone opening, with variations, from Okigo Jizai, by Hattori Inshuku (1824), with comments by Hattori and myself. Enjoy! |
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| Author: | VincentCB [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
Bantari wrote: As a side-note, my trusty internet says 'honto' means 'truth', while 'honte' means 'shame'. Any comment from language mavens? 'Hontô' (本当) is the Japanese word for truth, while 'honte' is the French word for shame, and the romanization of the Japanese word '本手' (proper move). |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
Bill Spight wrote: People do talk about being too honest as White in a handicap game, but in Japanese they use the word, shoujiki, not hontou. Indeed, shoujiki is closer to "honest", and hontou is closer to "true". The 本 (hon) present both in hontou and honte carries a meaning of truth/realness. |
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| Author: | tynan [ Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: High handicap and the way White plays |
What he said was, "Dishonest moves are moves that are made which would otherwise be foolish against a non-beginner." Tonight, I just got slaughtered by an opponent I had never played with before. Basically, what he did almost made me want to break the Go board in two and never play it again. At this point, I can pretty much live in gote (often sente) and end the game with 30 or so points (including dead stones). This is with of course a 9 handicap. Yes this is a losing score (at least on 19x19) but at my skill level I'm happy to even get an above-zero score. But this guy played a "trick" move, as he called it, and several moves later he had about 20 of my stones in atari. I thought he was merely reducing territory I already had (as is the normal course) but in reality he was setting me up for a huge capture. In the endgame, when it looks like black and white stones surround each other simultaneously, it's very difficult to read out a sequence of play right down to the last liberty. He knew he could get away with it in this particular case, otherwise he would have NEVER attempted something like that even against someone only 5 stones stronger than I. He would have won by a huge margin even if he hadn't done it. That, I think, would be a classic example of dishonest play. It doesn't teach me anything at this point except how to hate the game. When I first started playing this game, I was excited. Now I take my 9 stones and just try desperately to end the game with a score higher than zero. |
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