Just ko
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| Alive or just Ko http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9430 |
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| Author: | paK0 [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Alive or just Ko |
Hi, I just lost a game by 0,5 points because I could not figure this out in the 20 seconds that I had. Even after looking now I can only ever get kos, but I feel like the corner should be alive unconditional(maybe I read it somewhere). Any help highly appreciated. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alive or just Ko |
Just ko
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| Author: | paK0 [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alive or just Ko |
Thanks, gonna go sue Janice Kim now for writing that all 7+ eyeshapes are alive x.X |
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| Author: | leichtloeslich [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alive or just Ko |
It's ko. However, if you had a few more outside liberties it would be alive. Can you figure out the minimum number of outside liberties required for unconditional life? paK0 wrote: gonna go sue Janice Kim now for writing that all 7+ eyeshapes are alive Liberties matter (as do cuts). |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alive or just Ko |
paK0 wrote: Thanks, gonna go sue Janice Kim now for writing that all 7+ eyeshapes are alive x.X She almost certainly meant in the center of the board, without any cuts in the inside shape. Being on the corner or the side of the board can really change things. |
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| Author: | paK0 [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alive or just Ko |
leichtloeslich wrote: It's ko. However, if you had a few more outside liberties it would be alive. Can you figure out the minimum number of outside liberties required for unconditional life? Considering the fact that I just tried 15 minutes and can still not make living shape even disregarding outside liberties - no =) |
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| Author: | DrStraw [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alive or just Ko |
Looks alive in mannen ko to me. While not technically 100% alive it is as good as alive in practice. |
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| Author: | RBerenguel [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alive or just Ko |
paK0 wrote: Thanks, gonna go sue Janice Kim now for writing that all 7+ eyeshapes are alive x.X There's a stone in there anyway... 6 spaces
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| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alive or just Ko |
DrStraw wrote: Looks alive in mannen ko to me. While not technically 100% alive it is as good as alive in practice. Yup, It's mannen ko, but  above is not even required, so it is also sente for black.
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| Author: | DrStraw [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alive or just Ko |
HermanHiddema wrote: DrStraw wrote: Looks alive in mannen ko to me. While not technically 100% alive it is as good as alive in practice. Yup, It's mannen ko, but above is not even required, so it is also sente for black.Right. That was to make it clearer for anyone who did not see it. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alive or just Ko |
paK0 wrote: Thanks, gonna go sue Janice Kim now for writing that all 7+ eyeshapes are alive x.X I can hardly believe that she wrote that. She knew better. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alive or just Ko |
See http://senseis.xmp.net/?WalkieTalkieSeven
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| Author: | snorri [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alive or just Ko |
paK0 wrote: Of course it's nice to be able to solve the life and death problem, but another skill is to ask: how did I get in this situation to begin with? I would like to see the actual game sequence, but if it was possible to play the following shape instead...wouldn't it be happier? But be careful...read what white can do. |
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| Author: | paK0 [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alive or just Ko |
Bill Spight wrote: Ah, now I see why the libarities matter, I just reached the L on the first line and thought it was dead @snorri: seems alive to me, but knowing my reading skills.... |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alive or just Ko |
| Author: | clemi [ Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alive or just Ko |
Bill Spight wrote: In the end how do you count this ? I guess that's 1 point for white and 1 point for black (+1 if you count the prisoner in). |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Alive or just Ko |
Under Japanese rules, groups in seki have no points, so it's zero points of territory for black and zero for white. Since black has captured one stone, black comes away from the exchange with one point. Under Chinese rules, both white and black have one point of territory. Then you treat all of the stones as alive for the purposes of counting the number of stones on the board. So it works out to be the same as Japanese scoring in this case (since white has had one stone removed from the board). However, the unfillable dame could change things. |
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