| Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/ |
|
| 3.3 invasion joseki problem http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9911 |
Page 1 of 2 |
| Author: | lordish [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | 3.3 invasion joseki problem |
Hi i had an issue with 3.3 invasions so i went and look at a joseki. Attachment: joseki.png [ 9.08 KiB | Viewed 11575 times ] As i was looking at it i tried to disrupt black from completely forming it by playing at F17 which looks fine and unpublishable also it gives some influence at least. Attachment: joseki 2.png [ 9 KiB | Viewed 11575 times ] Is there a way to punish the F17 move by white because all i came up is a jungle of variations with no good way to punish him. |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
lordish wrote: Is there a way to punish the F17 move by white because all i came up is a jungle of variations with no good way to punish him. Yes, it's trivial: can you see how to kill the D18 stone? 
|
|
| Author: | lordish [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: lordish wrote: Is there a way to punish the F17 move by white because all i came up is a jungle of variations with no good way to punish him. Yes, it's trivial: can you see how to kill the D18 stone? Yeah i saw that in all variation but still doesn't he escape with 2 points anyway? Attachment: joseki 3.png [ 9.36 KiB | Viewed 11569 times ] |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
lordish wrote: As i was looking at it i tried to disrupt black from completely forming it by playing at F17 which looks fine and unpublishable also it gives some influence at least. You currently need to learn to see atari, which is the point of the previous question on how to kill D18.If you figure this out, then you realize all your "jungle of variations" are not necessary. Your current understanding of "influence" is also quite incomplete:  F17 is not influence -- it's a very badly placed stone.
|
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
lordish wrote: Yeah i saw that in all variation but still doesn't he escape with 2 points anyway? Who escapes, and where ?
|
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Instead of screenshots, it's better to use diagrams (rotated for space): |
|
| Author: | lordish [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 3.3 invasion joseki problem |
Attachment: joseki 4.png [ 11.36 KiB | Viewed 11561 times ] I have a bunch of similar variations, my main question is if there is a way to kill his corner because i failed to see how. |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
You can also use SGF: |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
lordish wrote: I have a bunch of similar variations, my main question is if there is a way to kill his corner because i failed to see how. OK, asking if B can kill W is another, separate question.But the first thing is for you to study why  is a nonsense move: |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi lordish, so you looked up this sequence. B gets the outside, and W lives in sente in the corner: |
|
| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 3.3 invasion joseki problem |
lordish wrote: Attachment: joseki 4.png I have a bunch of similar variations, my main question is if there is a way to kill his corner because i failed to see how. There's not much point to the main question, because that diagram contains too many mistakes. should be at  and white lives easily (but has still played that that terrible move at F17) is auto-atari, black can capture it by playing  at A18 is nonsense,  should push through at B13Can this corner die? Not if white plays correctly Does it matter? No, white is making huge losses anyway after the F17 mistake. |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
If W deviates from the sequence and plays , then naturally B kills  with and :We compare the result on the left with the original sequence on the right: on the left, W has already suffered a big loss because of : |
|
| Author: | lordish [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 3.3 invasion joseki problem |
Thanks to both of you i forgot the unique nature of the corner and somehow the atari at D18 didn't looked like a true punishment to me(he still gets the corner). I know that my knowledge of the game is really poor so can you please explain to me why F17 is that bad? Can he approach and kill it later? |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
lordish wrote: somehow the atari at D18 didn't looked like a true punishment to me(he still gets the corner). It's a good question. First, you think White "still gets the corner". Let's look at this for a moment:so can you please explain to me why F17 is that bad? If W wants to keep the corner, W needs to add a move  :Again, we compare the 2 results. In the original sequence on the right, W takes the corner in sente. In the new sequence on the left, W keeps the corner, yes, but in gote. This is a big difference (in addition to the big loss of losing the one W stone). The original stone is also very badly placed -- it is too close to B's powerful wall.
|
|
| Author: | Splatted [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: lordish wrote: I have a bunch of similar variations, my main question is if there is a way to kill his corner because i failed to see how. OK, asking if B can kill W is another, separate question.But the first thing is for you to study why is a nonsense move:I agree with this, but I think a little more guidance might be in order. White 1 seems to be a case of trying to steal the enemies vital point, but you have to understand why it's a vital point in order to know if that works. Try reading out some variations starting with white moves at the various lettered points, then do the same with the next diagram, and also compare them to your move at the marked point: A lot of these won't involve anything as dramatic as one side dying, but hopefully you can see that white has a much harder time fighting dealing with the moves in the first diagram. Can you now see why black plays that point and why it doesn't make sense for white to play there as you did? |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
If W ignores the ponnuki of , B has the very big move of , threatening the double atari (a): |
|
| Author: | schawipp [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: If W deviates from the sequence and plays , then naturally B kills with and :We compare the result on the left with the original sequence on the right: on the left, W has already suffered a big loss because of :I think another problem is that w ended in sente at right side but in gote at left side. If w does not finish the sequence at e. g. A2, black can get a big "endgame" there e. g.: Edit: I see that in the meantime, EdLee has already written more or less the same ... 
|
|
| Author: | lordish [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 3.3 invasion joseki problem |
Yeah thank you very much now it is much more clear to me. |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
lordish wrote: Yeah thank you very much now it is much more clear to me. Hi lordish, you're welcome. It's a good question,but actually not so easy to explain at your stage. For example, you need a lot more experience to see why the F17 stone is very badly placed, too close to B's powerful wall.
|
|
| Author: | gowan [ Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 3.3 invasion joseki problem |
To the OP: You don't appreciate the weakness of the F17 stone and the significance of the loss in the corner. The F17 move has several problems which can serve as guides for your future study and learning. First relates to the importance of sente versus gote. As was pointed out your sequence of moves allowing Black to capture the D18 stone results in White's invasion ending in gote. That means White has to make the last move in the corner, at B19. If White omits this move Black can play there and destabilize the white group. The standard joseki ends with Black making the last move so White has the initiative (sente) to start something elsewhere on the board. As for the White corner territory, after your sequence ending with B19, you (White) have about 8 points of territory. In the standard joseki sequence WHite gets about 10 points of territory. So your sequence loses White 2 points and also loses the initiative. Losing the initiative could possibly be OK if you gain enough from it. In this case you lost something, quite a difference. Don't take these suggestions as criticism, we all started playing at or close to your level. You have a wonderful experience of learning ahead of you, enjoy! Go Seigen, arguably the greatest go player of the modern era, said that the greatest enjoyment is becoming one stone (rank) stronger. You can look forward to having this experience many many times! |
|
| Page 1 of 2 | All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ] |
| Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|