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Where to play in this opening position?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9941		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  gostudent [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Where to play in this opening position?
In a recent 12k vs 13k game (I was 13k, playing black), I encountered the following position which I was unsure where should I play:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 0 . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . 7 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I would like to do something on the top left corner to reduce white, but I do not know where to play. I thought about playing at a or b, but I was worried about "kick and pincer" by white. So I ended up playing in c, which ended up badly -- it became a large group without eyes and was ultimately killed.


I have also attached the SGF file of this game in this post. I've found the game quite interesting, because one of my large group was killed, but I also managed to kill my opponent large group, ending up in a win for me.

I have added some of my thoughts in the SGF file, and if anyone could review that, it will be highly appreciated. :bow: Thanks!



Attachments:
2014-03-02-two-dragons-killed.sgf [5.12 KiB]
Downloaded 613 times
Author:  DrStraw [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where to play in this opening position?
My first reaction is tengen. It kind of invites an approach in the lower right. You could hope to give up a small group there and secure some territory in sente and then approach the upper left yourself.

But all the is gut feeling and has no analysis behind it.
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi gostudent, at these levels you can play many OK opening moves --
if you play a bad move, and as a result die a horrible death, great! Then get your game
reviewed here (or KGS, etc.) ! Then people will point out what really went wrong. :)

Your few candidate opening moves in your diagram -- (a), (b), and (c) -- are all OK at these levels.
No problem at all. So if you get a bad result, it is NOT because of your choice of (a), (b), or (c).
Rather, the mistake(s) will be in your follow-ups.

It's all in your basics. :)
Author:  hyperpape [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where to play in this opening position?
I would put more blame on the following moves. In particular, 17 is bad: you give up most the remaining aji in the corner in exchange for next to nothing. 19 also accomplishes very little--it strengthens your group a tiny bit, but it would be better to move out or to pincer white's stone at the top.
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Main lesson: many people at these levels like to focus on the opening moves.
Of course, the opening is interesting and it's good to study.
But what they fail to understand is their biggest mistakes are not in the opening moves.
Rather, it is in their follow-ups.
Author:  gostudent [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where to play in this opening position?
Thank you EdLee for your review! Your comments are appreciated. Indeed the follow-up is more important than the opening moves, and I'll pay attention to that.

With respect to the kick at the top right corner in move 21. I've now realized that, in the game, I have failed to notice the difference between this joseki with the actual game sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ --------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 2 . . 4 .
$$ | . . 1 , 6 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]


The fact that B5 is a diagonal move here, instead of a knight move in the game, it makes a big difference. Am I right?
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi gostudent, you're very welcome.
gostudent wrote:
The fact that :b5: is a diagonal move here, instead of a knight move in the game, it makes a big difference. Am I right?
Yes. Huge difference. Completely different shapes. Almost zero connection between the two. :)

Another big lesson here: Go is super super specific. Even one stone, one liberty,
one point, one eye, one move too soon or too late, one line off, or one ko threat
can sometimes mean life versus death or game over.

Many times over in your Go career you'll learn to appreciate this,
both with great joy and tremendous pain. :twisted:
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Where to play in this opening position?
Your two space low approach might not be too bad if you follow it up like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Uberdude [ Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Where to play in this opening position?
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Your two space low approach might not be too bad if you follow it up like this:


I'd actually go further and say that should give black a good result as white's pincer at c12 was from the wrong direction (inefficient with d10 already there) as he should have played from the corner with c16 as black can't then make a good extension with d10 in the way already (don't pincer when you already have a pincer in place).
Author:  LuckyJim [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Where to play in this opening position?
Uberdude wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
(don't pincer when you already have a pincer in place).


What do you generally do with a pincer already in place? And if it is 3 spaces away like in the example, what would be a good move for white?
Author:  Uberdude [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Where to play in this opening position?
LuckyJim wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
(don't pincer when you already have a pincer in place).

What do you generally do with a pincer already in place? And if it is 3 spaces away like in the example, what would be a good move for white?


In general if your opponent approaches a corner and you already have a pincer in place then play from the direction of the corner to stop the approach stone making eyes in that direction. For a 4-4 stone kick and one point jump after opponent extends would be normal, for low approach to 3-4 kick and knights's move or kosumi is the same idea; in this example of a distant approach to 3-4 then c16 is a simple and good move to make corner territory and stop black making eyes in the corner.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Where to play in this opening position?
Uberdude wrote:
In general if your opponent approaches a corner and you already have a pincer in place then play from the direction of the corner to stop the approach stone making eyes in that direction. For a 4-4 stone kick and one point jump after opponent extends would be normal, for low approach to 3-4 kick and knights's move or kosumi is the same idea; in this example of a distant approach to 3-4 then c16 is a simple and good move to make corner territory and stop black making eyes in the corner.


Some diagrams to illustrate the point Uberdude makes:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . 4 . . .
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 , 4 . . . .
$$ | . . 1 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 , . . 4 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . 3 . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
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