I'm unsure if I should continue this thread or post my games to review under the "Game Analysis" section...

Here is a game I played tonight. I think I got behind during fuseki then I managed to catch up in the middle game (I could have taken the lead if I do not misread the upper left corner). But then I lost my tempo having to defend a weakened wall and even though end game was ok (with another possible big gain I missed - though I'm not sure of that one) I still lost by 2.5 points as white.

- I'll need to study Chenese some more because I get to play against it an awful lot times. I blurry remember it's advised to approach from that side, thus I normally play D-14.
I didn't expect C-11 and I thought I'd divide. So far so good I think. But I again didn't expect the approach. I was starting to feel annoyed by being pushed around like that. Probably I should have pincered around C-8? I didn't want to create mutual weak groups so I chose to fend off the corner instead.
- I wanted to do something at the top left since black didn't enclose but I was unsure of the concrete spot. I think I was probably too soft. Then I thought I'd get some thickness to later attack the black group around D-9.
- But black approached with good timing again (I think) so I had to delay that plan. This time I thought I had to pincer (I don't really like pincers - I'll need to play them more to get more familiar with the variations arising). I didn't want to give black the right side that easy. I didn't expect the double approach but I think in the end I came out ok (by ).
- was again good timing IMO. should probably be on the 3rd line instead but I thought O-2 would help me there.
- I've been eying that for some time. It reduced the corner but it ended in gote and in the end I think it would have been better to just play straight.
- : panic time. I had next to zero territory (plus komi) and black already had 10. And now that. (I didn't count that during the game, just now. But the feeling was there.)
- I thought I'd mess around there to at least deny black the corner. It was only after that I noticed black didn't have 2 eyes. I didn't want to attack very desperately because I thought he'd either make a second eye or connect to the top. I instead wanted to erase potential at the top using my poking stones at H-12.
- :b117: was again big.
- :w124: I just wanted to mess around, throwing some stones there to later make an attack on M-17 easier. I nearly killed the corner but I misread. :w123: should have been at E-19. (I misread the false eye at C-18).
- Canceling the top potential turned out ok but I lost tempo with :w166: and most of my potential got counter-erased.
- :w204: should probably be at H-16. Then b H-15, w J-19 and profit... but I might be missing something.
- I was unable to reduce the right side. Is there a way? In the end I threw in O-9 just to keep black busy

Move 132: you can exploit the tesuji. Locally this is an exercise "counting liberties" after reading 1-2-3.
131 was a mistake (should connect at the snapback instead) and 130 hence was a succesfull trick, which 132 failed to capitalize upon. It's almost impossible to understand the thinking behind each of these moves.

Feel free to study the Chinese fuseki because it may be an interesting effort with all sorts of lessons, but counting liberties consistently will bring a substantial change to your win/loss ratio.

This may sound harsh but I really think that there is no point for any player to study the opening as long as we are not capable of reading simple positions in any part of the game. That is, if such a player genuinely wants to improve and not establish a false image of one's own go personality. (I've been there and still may be).

I'm slowly beginning to grasp the concept of harassing weak groups - well not really the concept, the concept is clear, much rather the execution - which is for some reason very hard for me: many times I end up with a dispelled moyo and no profit. The remedy to that seems to be throwing a bunch of forcing moves around before attacking the weak group.

Anyway, here is a recent game. I ended up winning big but until the second half of middle game it seemed as an uphill battle.

- I kind of didn't know what to do with I thought I'd keep him pressed towards the edge. Is there a better tactic?
- created a lot of bad aji for white which I failed to use - but I think I'm still more happy with the corners.
- again hard to answer. The corner is too close for my to be effective but something like b R-15 would feel overconcentrated.
- is possible? How much should I worry about the cut at R-9. The ladder is for white.
- feels too soft. Is there a better move to strengthen my group while threatening the corner?
- felt like a super severe move. But in the end I botched it. Hmm, now that I see, at O-1 (capture) would have made me live, right?
- After :w120: was there a better way to attack (even kill?) the G-7 white group - or given the weakness of my G-10 group a serous attack was not possible?
- I relaxed after :b189: the game was won. Score estimator says I was ok even before that but I didn't feel safe unless I manage to kill something at last. Now I'm not a kill oriented player but I felt I had missed a lot of opportunities for profit already.
- (As far as I can tell I wouldn't have been able to kill the G-17 group if :w200: was at H-19 instead.)

You can hane and fight.

The "some reason" lies in your basics, such as:
After the - exchange, you cut. ("Push-and-cut".) If you don't want to cut, or you cannot cut, then it's better not to push at all, because all you have done is reduce your own libs, and let B fix all his weakness with one move (if you don't cut).

Locally, if you're trying to kill B, the - exchange often helps B make eyes, so that's another reason we have to be very careful.

Your is good: big shared vital point.

For , R15 feels quite natural.

A few comments.



Edit: Corrected a variation.

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Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Here is another game. I think I should have won this one... but in the end, I lost.
I think I'm now better than 6k. It seems as if beyond the 6k wall there is a whole different game.



- I remember Nick Sibicky mentioning in his videos that is a losing move, so I approached immediately. (But I didn't dare to play E16 later, which was also suggested in such a case.)

- : my first instinct was to play R4 but it felt too passive. I also remembered this shape from a joseki but checking on Eidogo, it's not mentioned in this situation.

- it's unfortunate that the white groups are now almost connected, but it was worth much to me that now I don't have to worry about life.

- despite the ladder not working here I had plans: H-16 if white extends.

- I was unsure of this move. I wanted to strengthen K-16 while maintaining pressure on the white stones.

- I wanted to be strong here. Ponnuki is strong. Let's make a ponnuki...

- The plan was to reduce white here a bit and then create an enormous moyo. But Q-10 was a bit too far away from the top black stones. And I did feel so, but I couldn't think up anything better. How should I have gone about this?
Or should I just leave it for now and go for the bottom left 3-3 instead?

- Ok, that didn't turn out well. I'll just sacrifice that group now meanwhile reducing white moyo in the center and creating my own wall.

- :b107: must not let the snake into my territory

- :b117: the top left group started to feel worrisome. I wanted to prevent a deep intrusion and also secure the top left group.

- :b125: the losing move. I knew I should not play it, I felt that I should not play it, I still played it.

- :b141: Furikawari ftw. But it's probably not enough.

- :b149: the 2nd losing move. Should have been K-13.

Why did you tenuki on ?

is slow; for example, F4 is bigger.
It's also not a ponnuki; that requires a capture.

& you got gote for no reason — like you passed.

& you got gote again!

bad habit — force W to make good shape (if W captures, that's a ponnuki for W.)

Yes. I was aware that is tenuki but the only meaningful response I could think up was D-18 which would either continue by white playing E-16 or C-17. And I thought I would respond to that with D-17 and I didn't like that at all. But now that I'm writing this it appears to me that what if I don't play D-17? And I actually like that a lot! Am I right about that?

True.

True.

About blocking at D18: the corner looks big, to me.

If at D18, W ataris E16, and you don't connect at D17: that's ridiculous.
(Hmmm, seems basic ataris and connects are still confusing
at these levels — re: .)

An example of sacrificing stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 8 7 . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 5 2 4 . . .
$$ | . . 0 X 1 3 . . .
$$ | . . X 9 . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm11 Continuation
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . X O 2 3 . . .
$$ | . . X O X X 1 . .
$$ | . . X X O O 5 . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

In the above standard sequence,
W decides to give up and an extra stone before the cut of .
(This is a very standard sequence, so actually
W is prepared for and even before .)
W gives them up in exchange for the outside and the three forcing moves , , and .

When we botch a fight, or mess up a life-and-death
and our stones die like at , that's not a sacrifice.
We've just made a mistake and lost a group.

About . After I need to protect the cut or those 3 stones die. I decided to sacrifice in exchange of defending the cut in sente. Except: turned out not being sente enough.

is more than "I messed up, let's tenuki". I intended to use up the aji still contained in the to-be-dead group instead of trying to save it. I think it's important to learn not to cling to a troubled group - especially if I can get compensation for letting it die. It was not a planned sacrifice from the beginning, true.

Well, I'm still not through the wall yet... It's almost funny how I get rebounded on the rank graph.

Is this game creative or just simply stupid? :



- The 5-3 surprised me and I didn't really know how to deal with it. Thus to avoid any possible traps I chose to delay the question.
Now (that I did some research) I think I should have gone for a cross game with at D-4 and then go 3-3 (C-17) with
- I keep on building my moyo while remaining thick and taking advantage of my opponent's thin shapes but it's kinda slow and by I'm massively overconcentrated. Still I couldn't resist .
- and the continuation is kinda desperate. I needed to do something and I wanted to prevent giving my opponent a huge center thickness in exchange for my small life in the upper left. I think this is not something I'm supposed to get away with...
I'm just messing around, finally being able to put some pressure on the not 100% alive K-16 group. But is severe. Lucky for me, I think is big mistake, letting me connect my separated weak groups. I feel somewhat safer now.
- But whites moyo is still too big so I go with and create yet another weak group. Desperate times call for desperate solutions I guess...
- I was aiming at it, but didn't really believe that I would come to connect my bottom group with the center one.
- Then for a while I thought I was winning, but then came K-7 and white built a profitable wall. O-7 was some compensation but - according to score estimator later - not enough.
- I was more and more worried of a 3-3 invasion, thus :b149:
- I won the game thanks to K-15 which I spotted by accident. I missed H-7 later.
- I wanted to create a KO at the bottom left, but didn't succeed.

Hi peti29,
Just a quick question :
Is a standard response in this case ? I'm studying sanrensei but never saw that kind of move in response to the keima approach in the upper/right corner...

_________________
Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216

I disagree - it's the mistake by white in the next move. If he answered on L15 instead J15 he could still have connected. That makes indeed more than 20 points difference. In our kyu level it's almost always that kind of mistakes, which decide a game.


I guess it was on move 201? L15 looks also like a nice endgame (about 7 points IMHO).


That phenomenon sounds familiar to me and may be a hint that you are too much focused on rank. I suggest playing alternatively on a Korean server, where in the beginning your rank will most-likely random-walk in the DDKs - I'm currently still at 14k on Wbaduk's "Korea1" server . Doing so teaches you (1) more accurate reading and fighting and (2) not caring so much about rank at all. If you come back at KGS after a while it really feels more relaxed.

The attach on top of the approaching stone is one of the few common answer moves to the approach. If you look it up in a joseki dictonary you will find several joseki-variations starting from it.

The goal of the attaching is usually pressing the approach stone down and building influence towards the side. Since san-ren-sei is an opening focusing on influence the attach is usually a good choice for answering the first low approach.
It is obviously not the only possible way to handle the approach while playing san-ren-sei but it is still a good way.

I was (and partly still am) quite fond of the san-ren-sei opening some months ago and i usually also played the attach in these situations.

So to answer your question in short: Yes it is a common move, at least in the realms of us amateurs and i don't think that there is a clear refutation so it can not be considered "bad". Maybe you are watching the wrong games, if you have never seen this move. (I think san-ren-sei in general is currently not so popular among pros)

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Magics way up the hill (personal study journal)

Quick edit before post: MagicMagor was quicker to answer. Here's my thoughts anyway:



I don't know how standard it is. Eidogo.com has this to say about this response: "Kyu and low dan players should totally avoid playing this variation, regard it as bad move and instead play an extension or a pincer." But also: "The move should be played only if Black has a big moyo on the top side. The aim of this joseki is to make shape quickly."
This is a bit confusing to me as I do have a big moyo on the side and I do want to make shape quickly, and I usually have no problem playing this - probably because my opponents are too weak to punish the usage of this joseki for which I'm apparently too weak to use ? But I'm only joking here. I don't believe in such things. I play it because I like it and because it works for me. When I'll face a situation in which it doesn't work then I'll change to something else.

I like it because it helps me build a stronghold at one corner of my desired moyo. The kick would be bad here, the extension too defensive (and still leaves the corner open), and the pincer would make it hard to build the san ren sei moyo. Or so I think - probably there are several mistakes I'm not aware of.

Well, if he goes L15, I go L16 and then he's still disconnected - unless I miss something.

Yes, move 201.

Yes, that's probably there. I think I should play more stronger players. But instead I tend to play weaker players (I dunno, in hopes of an easier game?) and end up losing to them .

Sorry but this is wrong. Attach is a special purpose joseki and is played by weak players many many times when it is bad. Guo Juan 5p's advice is to banish this move from your repertoire until you are 5 dan as only then can you identify the rare occurrences it is good. Perhaps its popularity comes from its recommendation as a handicap joseki in that it's good enough if you start with loads of stones and is fairly simple.