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Joseki/fuseki help
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Author:  Krama [ Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Joseki/fuseki help
Hey there!

I am looking to study this particular pattern that often emerges in games however I just started to understand why the shapes are played like that and I would like to understand it more deeply.

The following joseki is often left uncompleted by strong players and pros. I recently was tutored by a player who told me what that is. They explained that before finishing the shape white in this case should play the bottom corner in some manner and await their opponent's response, then after that they should decide how to finish the joseki or tenuki if needed.

I would like if it isn't too much to ask, some links or videos where they specifically talk about this question.

Of course anyone is free to give their own opinion on this or perhaps even answer my question. Perhaps answering the question when there are black stones in bottom left and how to approach them and when the lower left is occupied by white stone(s).

Thank you for your time.



Attachments:
test.sgf [121 Bytes]
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Author:  judicata [ Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joseki/fuseki help
I just have a few minutes, so I can't fully respond to your question, but here are a few quick points:

First, the common joseki, fully played out, ends in gote for white. If white makes the one-space high approach and black attaches underneath, white's best opportunity to take sente is after :b5: in the SGF you posted. Therefore, white's tenuki isn't necessarily for the purpose of determining how to finish the joseki (although it can be).

One common reason for the tenuki is to create a ladder breaker in sente, in anticipation of a joseki in the lower right. Put another (and perhaps more accurate) way, often white plays D15 and C14 to break a potential ladder, and plays elsewhere to keep sente and because the exchange has served its purpose for now.

If black wants to play in this area after white's tenuki, the cut at D14 is the most natural (and common) play, commonly followed by white extending at C13, and black at E14. Of course, black has to decide that this exchange is good for him. As an alternative to the cut, black can play somewhere around D10.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joseki/fuseki help
Strong amateurs and pros do not leave this joseki uncompleted. The sequence through :b5: is complete. The old joseki in which White makes a solid connection, Black makes a one space extension, and then White makes a three space extension is good for Black. That was known by the mid-twentieth century. :)

However, the gote continuation by White is still playable in the fuseki. If you are White, just wait until you want to play it. (Or until Black cuts. ;))
Author:  S2W [ Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joseki/fuseki help
Dwyrin talks about it briefly in a couple of his lectures - here's one with a quick mention.

http://youtu.be/U200Cw_16hE

Michael Redmond also touches on it at 44-46 mins into this video. (Shows some variations on the rhs)
http://youtu.be/XeFqn7LMotY
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joseki/fuseki help
Some variations from Go Seigen: 21st Century Go, vol.2.
Author:  Uberdude [ Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joseki/fuseki help
There's quite a few chapters on this in http://senseis.xmp.net/?ADictionaryOfMo ... oreanStyle (e.g. 2nd line probe against shimari in lower left, or f3 approach against hoshi.)

One of the main ideas is you do things in the lower left corner to make it so that if black gets a stone at c6/7 you then choose the solid or hanging connection and the extension to c10/9 such that black's move is _not_ in the right place to be a checking extension against yours.
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joseki/fuseki help
Quote:
The old joseki in which White makes a solid connection, Black makes a one space extension, and then White makes a three space extension is good for Black. That was known by the mid-twentieth century.


I beg to differ. This was not the "old" joseki. It was introduced in 1942 by Kitani Minoru and is still played - GoGoD has 9 examples from last month (July 2014) alone.

The old joseki was for Black to play his finishing move as a kosumi. This reflected opinion in the Honinbo camp and was recorded in an old book by Akiyama Senboku where he said "low is bad". That joseki dates from the 1770s, but it too is still found in modern pro play, though not as often as the one-space jump.

However, account has to be taken of the great fault line in go: pre-komi/post-komi. In Edo times White's high approach itself was considered generally poor because it led to less aji than the low approach. In modern times, with komi and especially the higher komis, the lack of aji has been seen as a good thing by many White players.

But the most modern and rather common way of handling this joseki as White is to eschew connection altogether and play high at g13, which presumably reflects better understanding of the centre as much as the shift in komi.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joseki/fuseki help
Another example from Go Seigen. :)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joseki/fuseki help
John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
The old joseki in which White makes a solid connection, Black makes a one space extension, and then White makes a three space extension is good for Black. That was known by the mid-twentieth century.


I beg to differ. This was not the "old" joseki. It was introduced in 1942 by Kitani Minoru and is still played - GoGoD has 9 examples from last month (July 2014) alone.

The old joseki was for Black to play his finishing move as a kosumi. This reflected opinion in the Honinbo camp and was recorded in an old book by Akiyama Senboku where he said "low is bad". That joseki dates from the 1770s, but it too is still found in modern pro play, though not as often as the one-space jump.[/sgf]

Thanks, John. :)

By old I did not mean obsolete. Still, the point is worth making that the four Black stones are better placed than the four White stones -- on an empty board, anyway. The solid Black corner is too big. (This difference is more apparent if you play this joseki in all four corners, pinwheel style.) Tenuki after :b5: is a standard option, and White does not always come back. The sequence through :b5: is a complete joseki.
Author:  Uberdude [ Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joseki/fuseki help
That pinwheel argument is rather shallow though IMO. Pretty much any result where one player gets territory and the other influence is going to look bad when you spin them around the board in a way the influence can't be used well together but the territory just sits there as cash in the bank. The solid connection joseki is typically used where white values creating a group on the side, such as here to break up black's moyo from his mini-chinese (this opening appears in modern pro play).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


P.S. I presume John mean g14 not g13?
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joseki/fuseki help
Uberdude wrote:
That pinwheel argument is rather shallow though IMO. Pretty much any result where one player gets territory and the other influence is going to look bad when you spin them around the board in a way the influence can't be used well together but the territory just sits there as cash in the bank.


I don't think that it is so much a question of territory vs. influence as it is corner vs. side. In the pinwheel formation the Black one space jump from the corner inhibits White's development on the side. But that is what it is supposed to do. It exerts influence, too. In the pinwheel White's center influence, such as it is, is unimpeded.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Joseki/fuseki help
Another Go Seigen example. :)
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