Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/ |
|
Learning to play handicap fuseki. http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11788 |
Page 1 of 1 |
Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Tue May 05, 2015 11:09 am ] | ||
Post subject: | Learning to play handicap fuseki. | ||
No reason to bother with this entire game as my opponent let it get out of hand somewhere around move 100. I'm mainly concerned with how I handled the fuseki, especially in regard to my invasion at move W29. It seemed to me that I had no choice but to invade his sphere of influence being mounted in the top left, however, it got me into some trouble in the bottom right that a stronger player would have most certainly exploited.
|
Author: | Bki [ Tue May 05, 2015 12:15 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Learning to play handicap fuseki. |
Joelnelsonb wrote: No reason to bother with this entire game as my opponent let it get out of hand somewhere around move 100. I'm mainly concerned with how I handled the fuseki, especially in regard to my invasion at move W29. It seemed to me that I had no choice but to invade his sphere of influence being mounted in the top left, however, it got me into some trouble in the bottom right that a stronger player would have most certainly exploited. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Author: | DJLLAP [ Tue May 05, 2015 12:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Learning to play handicap fuseki. |
Hi Joelneslsonb. Here are a few comments: edit:it seems Bki beat me to it, but I will post them anyway. ![]() ![]() ![]() M17 for instance. ![]() ![]() |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue May 05, 2015 1:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Learning to play handicap fuseki. |
A few comments. Redundancy is good. ![]() |
Author: | skydyr [ Tue May 05, 2015 1:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Learning to play handicap fuseki. |
Bki wrote: ![]() I'm going to go out on a slightly facetious limb and say that there is no case when approaching high is "good" as such, there are only cases where the small knight's approach is bad. As more general (and serious) advice, 2 stone handicap games are barely handicap games. You should approach them as if you're playing an even game, play the best moves you can find, and just trust that your opponent will make slow moves, etc. to allow you to catch up by the time the game is in late endgame. Being greedy or trying to be too fast will just get you into trouble, because your opponent can see through most of your ploys. |
Author: | Bki [ Tue May 05, 2015 1:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Learning to play handicap fuseki. |
skydyr wrote: Bki wrote: ![]() I'm going to go out on a slightly facetious limb and say that there is no case when approaching high is "good" as such, there are only cases where the small knight's approach is bad. Hey, I'm sure I would become stronger if I learned to recognize where the small knight's approach was bad ![]() (That say, pondering whether to approach low or high is still valid when approaching a 3-4 or 3-5) Quote: As more general (and serious) advice, 2 stone handicap games are barely handicap games. You should approach them as if you're playing an even game, play the best moves you can find, and just trust that your opponent will make slow moves, etc. to allow you to catch up by the time the game is in late endgame. Being greedy or trying to be too fast will just get you into trouble, because your opponent can see through most of your ploys. As you will likely be stronger at fighting than your opponent, I would also say to seek complication more readily than in an even game. Though obviously this doesn't mean you should cross-cut when there's no way you can get a good result or play blatant overplays. |
Author: | skydyr [ Tue May 05, 2015 2:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Learning to play handicap fuseki. |
Bki wrote: skydyr wrote: Bki wrote: ![]() I'm going to go out on a slightly facetious limb and say that there is no case when approaching high is "good" as such, there are only cases where the small knight's approach is bad. Hey, I'm sure I would become stronger if I learned to recognize where the small knight's approach was bad ![]() Well, the small-knight's approach offers a lot of flexibility because it opens up the corner aji in a big way. This means that depending on your strategic goal, it's easy to sacrifice the stone to invade the corner in a larger fashion, or to play on the outside and keep it in reserve, or to slide in for a base and split it, or many other things. With the high approach, and the more distant ones, that aji doesn't open up in the same way. Consider this example: Normally white can't get so large a corner, but black can't hane with ![]() When white plays the high approach, there is still aji in the corner, as there was to begin with, but it doesn't increase it in the same way. Being on the 4th line, it also can't form a base as easily. It's more useful in the case where you're looking to expand a moyo on the side, for example, and in that case, going back to my statement, I think that it's virtue isn't that it's such a great move, so much as that the small knight's move might be bad, because black can attach on top or otherwise press white down. If you look at pro games, the proportion of the small knight's approach to 4-4 as compared to all other moves is so high, more than 90% of the time according to Sensei's, that it's hard to call every other move anything but a compromise by current thinking. As for the other opening moves in the corner, approach move choice tends to be dictated much more by circumstance or goal. |
Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Tue May 05, 2015 6:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Learning to play handicap fuseki. |
So there's been talk about the high approach at W11. I played here because I wanted to set up a wall to influence the area below it. Though the Q12 stone was played as a response, I knew that conflict in this area would be inevitable. Therefore, I chose to allow black to take a large corner in exchange for the influence needed to kill what would later be the Q12 group. This was the primary reason for the placement of the invasion at L16. I did think of destroying black's base, however, what good would it do if he still has the corner? The L16 stone was placed to look like it was putting pressure on the F17 wall, only to mask my plan of continuing a wall from L16 to Q15. Though my opponent didn't respond where I had hoped, he still gave me the opportunity to connect and then attack Q12. Seeing as all of this went according to plan (including the death of the attacked group), what was wrong with the high approach? Personally, I generally prefer to approach high just because I don't like making territorial moves so early in the game. Who care's about early points when you can get a fighting advantage? As has been demonstrated, black had an easy escape from my attacking stones, however, what was it about my strategy that was inferior? |
Author: | DJLLAP [ Tue May 05, 2015 9:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Learning to play handicap fuseki. |
Joelnelsonb wrote: So there's been talk about the high approach at W11. I played here because I wanted to set up a wall to influence the area below it. Though the Q12 stone was played as a response, I knew that conflict in this area would be inevitable. Therefore, I chose to allow black to take a large corner in exchange for the influence needed to kill what would later be the Q12 group. This was the primary reason for the placement of the invasion at L16. I did think of destroying black's base, however, what good would it do if he still has the corner? The L16 stone was placed to look like it was putting pressure on the F17 wall, only to mask my plan of continuing a wall from L16 to Q15. Though my opponent didn't respond where I had hoped, he still gave me the opportunity to connect and then attack Q12. Seeing as all of this went according to plan (including the death of the attacked group), what was wrong with the high approach? Personally, I generally prefer to approach high just because I don't like making territorial moves so early in the game. Who care's about early points when you can get a fighting advantage? As has been demonstrated, black had an easy escape from my attacking stones, however, what was it about my strategy that was inferior? It is not like the high approach is a horrible move that turns the whole game in your opponent's favor. It is just that it is sub-optimal. Assuming optimal play from both players after a high approach, you give more than you get. |
Author: | skydyr [ Wed May 06, 2015 6:46 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Learning to play handicap fuseki. |
DJLLAP wrote: It is not like the high approach is a horrible move that turns the whole game in your opponent's favor. It is just that it is sub-optimal. Assuming optimal play from both players after a high approach, you give more than you get. There's also something to be said for playing moves that take your opponent out of their book (of joseki known by them, etc.) in a handicap game, so that your presumably better reading can prevail over theirs. However, this is much more relevant to high handicap games, starting at say, 4 stones, than it is to a two stone game. |
Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ] |
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |