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 Post subject: Re: This 'n' that #1041 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:14 am
 Honinbo

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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
`[go]\$\$W White to play\$\$ --------------\$\$ | . O . b X . . . . . . .\$\$ | a X O O X . . . . . . .\$\$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .\$\$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]`

My goal is to try to draw the thermograph of the position above but it is not easy !

OC I will first try to draw the thermograph of the position:

`[go]\$\$W White to play\$\$ --------------\$\$ | . O . . X . . . . . . .\$\$ | O X O O X . . . . . . .\$\$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .\$\$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]`

more later

`[go]\$\$ Sagari \$\$ --------------\$\$ | . O . O X . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X O O X . . . . . . .\$\$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .\$\$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]`

For the thermograph of the position after the sagari, this may be of interest. Hidden out of courtesy.

As is plain, with no ko threats, at temperature 7 the mast value is 0.

At lower temperatures, such as t = 4, Black does better not to make the ko.

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 Post subject: Re: This 'n' that #1042 Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:58 am
 Honinbo

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It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory.

That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner.

The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score.

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 Post subject: Re: This 'n' that #1043 Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:59 pm
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Bill Spight wrote:
It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory.

That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner.

The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score.

A lot of stuff Bill, and only two comments (hoping I am not wrong):

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 Post subject: Re: This 'n' that #1044 Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:58 pm
 Honinbo

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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory.

That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner.

The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score.

A lot of stuff Bill, and only two comments (hoping I am not wrong):

I was playing the game out at territory temperature 0. In which case there is no pass stone for Black.

In the beginning you did not specify the conditions, and when I said I assumed no ko threats and territory temperature 0, you did not object. You often leave me guessing.

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 Post subject: Re: This 'n' that #1045 Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:09 pm
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Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory.

That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner.

The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score.

A lot of stuff Bill, and only two comments (hoping I am not wrong):

I was playing the game out at territory temperature 0. In which case there is no pass stone for Black.

In the beginning you did not specify the conditions, and when I said I assumed no ko threats and territory temperature 0, you did not object. You often leave me guessing.

Sorry Bill I was not aware that playing the game out at territory temperature 0 means no pass stone. Do not forget I am not an expert

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 Post subject: Re: This 'n' that #1046 Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:05 pm
 Honinbo

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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
I was playing the game out at territory temperature 0. In which case there is no pass stone for Black.

In the beginning you did not specify the conditions, and when I said I assumed no ko threats and territory temperature 0, you did not object. You often leave me guessing.

Sorry Bill I was not aware that playing the game out at territory temperature 0 means no pass stone. Do not forget I am not an expert

Your second comment also relies upon the pass stone, no?

Edit: Sorry. is already a mistake. Thanks.

----

Territory temperature 1 is the same as area temperature 2. So an ideal environment for the simple 1st line hanetsugi at area scoring must include Japanese dame, which have area temperature 1.

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 Post subject: Re: This 'n' that #1047 Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:49 am
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Bill Spight wrote:
It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory.

That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner.

The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score.

I do not see what these 7½ points of territory means in the context of finding the thermograph of the position

`[go]\$\$W White to play\$\$ --------------\$\$ | . O . b X . . . . . . .\$\$ | a X O O X . . . . . . .\$\$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .\$\$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]`

Could you clarify what was your goal with this example Bill?
I used myself an environment with miai gote points to prove that the sagari may be the best move but I do not like very much such environment made of miai points. The goal seems clearly to use tunnelling effect in order to prove a specif point but I do not see how it could be useful to find a thermograph.

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 Post subject: Re: This 'n' that #1048 Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:26 am
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`[go]\$\$W White to play\$\$ --------------\$\$ | . O . b X . . . . . . .\$\$ | a X O O X . . . . . . .\$\$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .\$\$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]`

I progress very slowly. For the time being I think the miai value of the position above is equal to 7 but I am not quite sure:

`[go]\$\$W White to play\$\$ --------------\$\$ | 4 O . 1 X . . . . . . .\$\$ | 5 X O O X . . . . . . .\$\$ | X 7 O X X . . . . . . .\$\$ | 3 O O X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | 2 O X X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]`
tenuki
tenuki
Score1 = -7 + 2t

`[go]\$\$B Black to play\$\$ --------------\$\$ | 3 O 5 1 X . . . . . . .\$\$ | 2 X O O X . . . . . . .\$\$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .\$\$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]`
tenuki
tenuki
Score2 = 21 - 2t

Score 1 = Score2 <=> -7 + 2t = 21 - 2t <=> t = 7

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 Post subject: Re: This 'n' that #1049 Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:27 am
 Honinbo

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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory.

I do not see what these 7½ points of territory means in the context of finding the thermograph of the position

`[go]\$\$W White to play\$\$ --------------\$\$ | . O . b X . . . . . . .\$\$ | a X O O X . . . . . . .\$\$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .\$\$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]`

Nothing directly. It has to do with the ko ensemble. Comparing the sagari and the throw-in in a ko position has to do with von Neumann game theory.

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Could you clarify what was your goal with this example Bill?

To do what I did. You found the size of the gote that equalized the results for 3 gote, but what is the size for 4 gote?

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 Post subject: Re: This 'n' that #1050 Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:32 am
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Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory.

I do not see what these 7½ points of territory means in the context of finding the thermograph of the position

`[go]\$\$W White to play\$\$ --------------\$\$ | . O . b X . . . . . . .\$\$ | a X O O X . . . . . . .\$\$ | X . O X X . . . . . . .\$\$ | . O O X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . O X X . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | X X . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]`

Nothing directly. It has to do with the ko ensemble. Comparing the sagari and the throw-in in a ko position has to do with von Neumann game theory.

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Could you clarify what was your goal with this example Bill?

To do what I did. You found the size of the gote that equalized the results for 3 gote, but what is the size for 4 gote?

Yes Bill with 4 gote the environment {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} works even with pure gote.
Your proposal {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+½|-½} + {+½|-½} + {+½|-½} + {+½|-½} works also but it looks like 8 gote points.

Can't we go farther with the environment {+11|-11} + {+11|-11} + {+2|-2} + {+2|-2} which is also made of miai points?

`[go]\$\$W White to play\$\$ --------------\$\$ | . O . b X X O O O O O O O O O O O . O |\$\$ | a X O O X X X X X X X X X X X X X X O |\$\$ | X . O X X X O O O O O O O O O O O . O |\$\$ | . O O X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X O |\$\$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . O |\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O |\$\$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . O |\$\$ | X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X O |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]`

I do not know if we can reach a higher temperature with only 4 pure gote points in a miai situation.

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 Post subject: Re: This 'n' that #1051 Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:25 am
 Honinbo

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There are many possibilities for the ko ensemble.

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 Post subject: Re: This 'n' that #1052 Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:31 pm
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Bill Spight wrote:
There are many possibilities for the ko ensemble.

OC Bill, that is the reason why I did not really understand why you proposed such example with a miai value 7½ in the environment.
It was just to help you I took some time to study some environments with 4 gote points in order to reach a higher temperature (11 in my example).

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 Post subject: Re: This 'n' that #1053 Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:50 pm
 Honinbo

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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
There are many possibilities for the ko ensemble.

OC Bill, that is the reason why I did not really understand why you proposed such example with a miai value 7½ in the environment.
It was just to help you I took some time to study some environments with 4 gote points in order to reach a higher temperature (11 in my example).

I appreciate that, thank you. But remember, my pre-thermography method of ko evaluation basically used an environment of simple gote. That is not my focus, now.

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 Post subject: Re: This 'n' that #1054 Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:27 am
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Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
lowing position
`[go]\$\$W\$\$ --------------\$\$ | X a X O O . .\$\$ | X O O O O . .\$\$ | X b X X O . .\$\$ | X O O O O . .\$\$ | X X . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . , . . .[/go]`

In CGT, with a non-ko environment, a play at b plainly dominates a play at a. And, even though nobody has proved it, AFAIK, experience says that it is dominated in ko environments, as well. A play at a may be correct in some circumstances, but it is still dominated. An amateur SDK who plays it instead of b is, at best, careless. For an amateur dan player I would say that it is a bad play.

`[go]\$\$B black to play\$\$ --------------\$\$ | X a X . O . .\$\$ | X O O O O . .\$\$ | X b X X O . .\$\$ | X O O O O . .\$\$ | X X . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . , . . .[/go]`

GO is a surprising game. It seems a black move at "b" dominates a black move at "a" in all circumstancies (I mean in a ko or non-ko environment) but it is not the case. It may happen than a black move at "a" is strictly better than a black move at "b". Do you see the point?

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 Post subject: Re: This 'n' that #1055 Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:19 am
 Honinbo

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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
lowing position
`[go]\$\$W\$\$ --------------\$\$ | X a X O O . .\$\$ | X O O O O . .\$\$ | X b X X O . .\$\$ | X O O O O . .\$\$ | X X . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . , . . .[/go]`

In CGT, with a non-ko environment, a play at b plainly dominates a play at a. And, even though nobody has proved it, AFAIK, experience says that it is dominated in ko environments, as well. A play at a may be correct in some circumstances, but it is still dominated. An amateur SDK who plays it instead of b is, at best, careless. For an amateur dan player I would say that it is a bad play.

`[go]\$\$B black to play\$\$ --------------\$\$ | X a X . O . .\$\$ | X O O O O . .\$\$ | X b X X O . .\$\$ | X O O O O . .\$\$ | X X . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . , . . .[/go]`

GO is a surprising game. It seems a black move at "b" dominates a black move at "a" in all circumstancies (I mean in a ko or non-ko environment) but it is not the case. It may happen than a black move at "a" is strictly better than a black move at "b". Do you see the point?

Very interesting.

I can guess that b has a strict miai that together act as a defensive ko threat.

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 Post subject: Re: This 'n' that #1056 Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:26 am
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Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
`[go]\$\$B black to play\$\$ --------------\$\$ | X a X . O . .\$\$ | X O O O O . .\$\$ | X b X X O . .\$\$ | X O O O O . .\$\$ | X X . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . . . . .\$\$ | . . . , . . .[/go]`

GO is a surprising game. It seems a black move at "b" dominates a black move at "a" in all circumstancies (I mean in a ko or non-ko environment) but it is not the case. It may happen than a black move at "a" is strictly better than a black move at "b". Do you see the point?

Very interesting.

I can guess that b has a strict miai that together act as a defensive ko threat.

Not in the circumstances I found, but that does not mean that you cannot find a position where your idea applies.

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