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| This 'n' that http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12327 |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: This 'n' that |
Gérard TAILLE wrote: My goal is to try to draw the thermograph of the position above but it is not easy ! OC I will first try to draw the thermograph of the position: more later For the thermograph of the position after the sagari, this may be of interest. Hidden out of courtesy.  |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: This 'n' that |
It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory. That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner. The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score.
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| Author: | Gérard TAILLE [ Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: This 'n' that |
Bill Spight wrote: It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory. That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner. The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score. A lot of stuff Bill, and only two comments (hoping I am not wrong): |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: This 'n' that |
Gérard TAILLE wrote: Bill Spight wrote: It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory. That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner. The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score. A lot of stuff Bill, and only two comments (hoping I am not wrong): I was playing the game out at territory temperature 0. In which case there is no pass stone for Black. In the beginning you did not specify the conditions, and when I said I assumed no ko threats and territory temperature 0, you did not object. You often leave me guessing. 
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| Author: | Gérard TAILLE [ Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: This 'n' that |
Bill Spight wrote: Gérard TAILLE wrote: Bill Spight wrote: It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory. That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner. The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score. A lot of stuff Bill, and only two comments (hoping I am not wrong): I was playing the game out at territory temperature 0. In which case there is no pass stone for Black. In the beginning you did not specify the conditions, and when I said I assumed no ko threats and territory temperature 0, you did not object. You often leave me guessing. Sorry Bill I was not aware that playing the game out at territory temperature 0 means no pass stone. Do not forget I am not an expert What about my second comment? |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: This 'n' that |
Gérard TAILLE wrote: Bill Spight wrote: I was playing the game out at territory temperature 0. In which case there is no pass stone for Black. In the beginning you did not specify the conditions, and when I said I assumed no ko threats and territory temperature 0, you did not object. You often leave me guessing. Sorry Bill I was not aware that playing the game out at territory temperature 0 means no pass stone. Do not forget I am not an expert What about my second comment? Your second comment also relies upon the pass stone, no? Edit: Sorry.  is already a mistake. Thanks. ---- Territory temperature 1 is the same as area temperature 2. So an ideal environment for the simple 1st line hanetsugi at area scoring must include Japanese dame, which have area temperature 1.
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| Author: | Gérard TAILLE [ Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: This 'n' that |
Bill Spight wrote: It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory. That is big enough for White to sacrifice the corner. The fact that taking the gote gains 7½ points may not be obvious. One one side it takes 8 points of territory, but on the other side it leaves a gote position worth, on average, ½ point to the other player. They are not simple gote, but, since there will be 4 of them at the end, they will be strict miai, adding up to an integer score. I do not see what these 7½ points of territory means in the context of finding the thermograph of the position Could you clarify what was your goal with this example Bill? I used myself an environment with miai gote points to prove that the sagari may be the best move but I do not like very much such environment made of miai points. The goal seems clearly to use tunnelling effect in order to prove a specif point but I do not see how it could be useful to find a thermograph. |
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| Author: | Gérard TAILLE [ Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: This 'n' that |
I progress very slowly. For the time being I think the miai value of the position above is equal to 7 but I am not quite sure:  tenuki tenukiScore1 = -7 + 2t  tenuki tenukiScore2 = 21 - 2t Score 1 = Score2 <=> -7 + 2t = 21 - 2t <=> t = 7 |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: This 'n' that |
Gérard TAILLE wrote: Bill Spight wrote: It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory. I do not see what these 7½ points of territory means in the context of finding the thermograph of the position Nothing directly. It has to do with the ko ensemble. Comparing the sagari and the throw-in in a ko position has to do with von Neumann game theory. Gérard TAILLE wrote: Could you clarify what was your goal with this example Bill? To do what I did. You found the size of the gote that equalized the results for 3 gote, but what is the size for 4 gote?
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| Author: | Gérard TAILLE [ Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: This 'n' that |
Bill Spight wrote: Gérard TAILLE wrote: Bill Spight wrote: It seems like the size of each of 4 gote in the ko ensemble such that the result for the sagari and the throw-in is the same is a miai value of 7½ points of territory. I do not see what these 7½ points of territory means in the context of finding the thermograph of the position Nothing directly. It has to do with the ko ensemble. Comparing the sagari and the throw-in in a ko position has to do with von Neumann game theory. Gérard TAILLE wrote: Could you clarify what was your goal with this example Bill? To do what I did. You found the size of the gote that equalized the results for 3 gote, but what is the size for 4 gote? Yes Bill with 4 gote the environment {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} works even with pure gote. Your proposal {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+7½|-7½} + {+½|-½} + {+½|-½} + {+½|-½} + {+½|-½} works also but it looks like 8 gote points. Can't we go farther with the environment {+11|-11} + {+11|-11} + {+2|-2} + {+2|-2} which is also made of miai points? I do not know if we can reach a higher temperature with only 4 pure gote points in a miai situation. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: This 'n' that |
There are many possibilities for the ko ensemble.
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| Author: | Gérard TAILLE [ Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: This 'n' that |
Bill Spight wrote: There are many possibilities for the ko ensemble. OC Bill, that is the reason why I did not really understand why you proposed such example with a miai value 7½ in the environment. It was just to help you I took some time to study some environments with 4 gote points in order to reach a higher temperature (11 in my example). |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: This 'n' that |
Gérard TAILLE wrote: Bill Spight wrote: There are many possibilities for the ko ensemble. OC Bill, that is the reason why I did not really understand why you proposed such example with a miai value 7½ in the environment. It was just to help you I took some time to study some environments with 4 gote points in order to reach a higher temperature (11 in my example). I appreciate that, thank you. But remember, my pre-thermography method of ko evaluation basically used an environment of simple gote. That is not my focus, now.
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| Author: | Gérard TAILLE [ Mon Jul 05, 2021 2:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: This 'n' that |
Bill Spight wrote: Gérard TAILLE wrote: lowing position In CGT, with a non-ko environment, a play at b plainly dominates a play at a. And, even though nobody has proved it, AFAIK, experience says that it is dominated in ko environments, as well. A play at a may be correct in some circumstances, but it is still dominated. An amateur SDK who plays it instead of b is, at best, careless. For an amateur dan player I would say that it is a bad play. GO is a surprising game. It seems a black move at "b" dominates a black move at "a" in all circumstancies (I mean in a ko or non-ko environment) but it is not the case. It may happen than a black move at "a" is strictly better than a black move at "b". Do you see the point? |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: This 'n' that |
Gérard TAILLE wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Gérard TAILLE wrote: lowing position In CGT, with a non-ko environment, a play at b plainly dominates a play at a. And, even though nobody has proved it, AFAIK, experience says that it is dominated in ko environments, as well. A play at a may be correct in some circumstances, but it is still dominated. An amateur SDK who plays it instead of b is, at best, careless. For an amateur dan player I would say that it is a bad play. GO is a surprising game. It seems a black move at "b" dominates a black move at "a" in all circumstancies (I mean in a ko or non-ko environment) but it is not the case. It may happen than a black move at "a" is strictly better than a black move at "b". Do you see the point? Very interesting. I can guess that b has a strict miai that together act as a defensive ko threat. |
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| Author: | Gérard TAILLE [ Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: This 'n' that |
Bill Spight wrote: Gérard TAILLE wrote: GO is a surprising game. It seems a black move at "b" dominates a black move at "a" in all circumstancies (I mean in a ko or non-ko environment) but it is not the case. It may happen than a black move at "a" is strictly better than a black move at "b". Do you see the point? Very interesting. I can guess that b has a strict miai that together act as a defensive ko threat. Not in the circumstances I found, but that does not mean that you cannot find a position where your idea applies. |
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