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Pincers and studying joseki
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13036		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  pragmaticleas [ Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Pincers and studying joseki
Some times after I make a corner approach move, my opponent would counter with a pincer instead of making a peaceful split near the corner into two halves where black gets one side and white gets the other.

I find pincers especially those after high approaching a 3-4 or 4-4 stone rather troubling to deal with at my level. If I make a low approach, I often have the option to just attach at or invade the 3-3 point. However, with a high approach that is pincered, it's harder to find a base and baseless chasing, cutting, sacrificing and fights may occur.

Baseless cutting, sacrificing and fights are areas I am currently weak at. I considered my options which seem to be:
1. use low approach moves only
2. study pincer joseki

The drawback with 1 is that I cannot use a high approach move when I sometimes I want to compete for influence (may be I don't need to use a high approach move to do that?).

The drawback with 2 is that there seem to be too many variations for me to study in depth (I heard that simply memorizing joseki is futile). On the other hand, I am between 10 to 5 kyu now, so maybe it's about time I brush up on my baseless fighting skills by studying joseki?

Any advice? :scratch:
Author:  EdLee [ Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Study. Review. Rinse & repeat.
Author:  daal [ Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pincers and studying joseki
I have been memorizing joseki for a while using a free spaced repetition app called go joseki. Although I rarely play these josekis (either my opponent deviates or I forget a move) I feel that I am getting a better sense of how a corner encounter should wind up if played correctly. First of all, they pretty much never end with one player being entirely enclosed. Usually the player getting the corner territory will have access to one if not both sides, and at the very least have some non-dead stones (often stemming from a pincer stone) peppered on the outside to mitigate the opponent's influence. A (vast?) majority of josekis end with the player controlling the outside getting either a wall with an extention to one side or a group diagonally facing the center. In either case, the cutting points are usually protected.

So my advice to you, and this is what I try to do myself, is to look at the corner with regard to the rest of the board and decide which fair exchange would be preferable to you (do you want a wall with an extention to one side? do you want some corner territory with access to a particular side?) and then try to make it happen. If you want the outside, often a high approach or a pincer is the way to go.

As to your specific worry of having a high approach pincered and not being able to make a base, it is often resolved by pressuring the corner stone to build strength outside, sometimes by sacrificing a few stones in the corner, and then going on either to extend to a free side or to attack the pincer stone. So keep trying that high approach - particularly if you think that some outside influence could work well with the rest of the board, and fix those cutting points!
Author:  Jarmo [ Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pincers and studying joseki
Try using the pincer yourself. When I come up against a move in a game that makes me uncomfortable, I end up trying it out on my next opponent. The opponent might make a great response that you didn't consider.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pincers and studying joseki
pragmaticleas wrote:
Some times after I make a corner approach move, my opponent would counter with a pincer instead of making a peaceful split near the corner into two halves where black gets one side and white gets the other.


Welcome to the club! :D

Quote:
I find pincers especially those after high approaching a 3-4 or 4-4 stone rather troubling to deal with at my level. If I make a low approach, I often have the option to just attach at or invade the 3-3 point. However, with a high approach that is pincered, it's harder to find a base and baseless chasing, cutting, sacrificing and fights may occur.

Baseless cutting, sacrificing and fights are areas I am currently weak at. I considered my options which seem to be:
1. use low approach moves only
2. study pincer joseki

The drawback with 1 is that I cannot use a high approach move when I sometimes I want to compete for influence (may be I don't need to use a high approach move to do that?).

The drawback with 2 is that there seem to be too many variations for me to study in depth (I heard that simply memorizing joseki is futile). On the other hand, I am between 10 to 5 kyu now, so maybe it's about time I brush up on my baseless fighting skills by studying joseki?

Any advice? :scratch:


Sure. Forget option 1. Make the play that you think is best. You don't know the complicated joseki? So what? Do you think that your opponent does? ;)

Maybe it's about time to brush up on your baseless fighting skills by fighting. :) You are right that simply memorizing joseki does not do all that much good. When you study joseki you should try to figure out the best play on your own first, and then look at how the joseki develops. Why not do the first part in your own games? You will have the additional motivation of trying to win the game. ;)

Make the plays you want to play, and don't worry about complications. Then, if something goes wrong, which it often will, consult the joseki books or databases. The thinking that you put in during the games will help you to understand the joseki. :)

Good luck!
Author:  Charles Matthews [ Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pincers and studying joseki
pragmaticleas wrote:
I find pincers especially those after high approaching a 3-4 or 4-4 stone rather troubling to deal with at my level. If I make a low approach, I often have the option to just attach at or invade the 3-3 point. However, with a high approach that is pincered, it's harder to find a base and baseless chasing, cutting, sacrificing and fights may occur.


Your approach is thoughtful, which is a fine start.

pragmaticleas wrote:
Baseless cutting, sacrificing and fights are areas I am currently weak at. I considered my options which seem to be:
1. use low approach moves only
2. study pincer joseki


There is also tenuki. In other words, refine #2 to the relatively limited number of tenuki variations. This is not a complete answer, but it is better than "blind fighting". A subclass of tenuki ideas is to play a counter-pincer of some sort.

As for #1, it is better in a sense than "use high approach moves only", which is quite a common (but deprecated) idea for 4-3 points. That is because low approaches can be shown to be the pro choice for certain kinds of positions: those where quick life is the natural goal.

The 3-6 approach to the 4-3 point can also be recommended as relatively easy to study.

For a more complete view, you have to study the strategy of the opponent who pincers you, and try not to go along with it. The strategy is different in the 4-4 and 4-3 cases. For a 4-4 point and a normal 3-6 approach, a pincer simply places emphasis on one side.

With a 4-3 point, 3-5 approach, a pincer is the classic response, and does try to put pressure on the approach stone. So you are tested on your defensive options, or willingness to trade away the stone, or ability to handle a running fight. What you are mainly trying to avoid is clumsy or heavy plays. But you don't need a huge repertoire, if you aim for a quick life.

"Strategy" here does mean looking at sides as a whole, i.e. stones in adjacent corners. So I would recommend some study, using modern databases, of whole-side pincer patterns, not just the numerous corner diagrams you find in joseki dictionaries.

Some pincers, e.g. the "dogleg", get overused by players around 1d. That would be because none of the above mitigate the need to study them. It is not because they are superior plays.
Author:  longshanks [ Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pincers and studying joseki
pragmaticleas wrote:

I find pincers especially those after high approaching a 3-4 or 4-4 stone rather troubling to deal with at my level.

(snip)

Any advice? :scratch:


I just bought Joseki Volume 1 - Fundamentals by Robert Jasiek (who is also active on this forum).

Chapter 7 deals with pincers and it's excellent. I just picked that chapter to read at random last night. I think it will answer most of your questions.

Longshanks.
Author:  joellercoaster [ Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pincers and studying joseki
pragmaticleas wrote:
1. use low approach moves only


This has been working surprisingly well for me :oops:

(This does not constitute actual advice, it's just how I've been cutting down my own learning options tree in the short term, at my own level (which I suspect is very similar to yours). You should absolutely explore all the wonderful varieties of things to play in the opening, and other people in this thread have given really good thoughts. But it's an approach! - pun totally not intended by the way.)
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