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Seeking opinion about books
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1381		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Jash [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:53 am ]
Post subject:  Seeking opinion about books
Hello,

For my first post in this forum, i'd like your opinion about some books i'm planning to acquire to improve my go =)!

the books are:
- lessons in the fundamentals of go
- Dictionary of basic tesuji Vol 1 & 2
- Punishing and correcting Joseki mistakes

I'm globally an 11kyu KGS (through i may be a bit stronger, it's just i don't play ranked games), i already have the elementary go series (i'm reading 38 josekis, and tesuji now) alongside cho chikun all about life and death vol 1 (reading it slowly), and i'd like to see if those books i mentioned are good (clear & well written =). I already know that lessons in the fundamentals of go is awesome, so i'm more curious about the other books. Also, if someone can advice me something else to read that would be nice :mrgreen:. Thx for anyone who can help!
Author:  judicata [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
Welcome to the forums.

All of these are great, and you can find some more info in other threads.

Most people apparently love Lessons in the Fundamentals. I did not find it as useful, but it is worth a read.

Though I haven't read it, I wouldn't recommend Correcting and Punishing Joseki mistakes quite yet. If you want to study joseki intensely right now (and that's a big if), I would start (after 38 basic joseki) with something else - like Ishida or Get Strong at Joseki or something.

But I would read Attack and Defense, Graded Go Problems for Beginners, and 1001 Life & Death Problems before those other books.

YMMV
Author:  Jash [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
Thx a lot for your opinion! I already have the 38 basic Josekis book which i'm reading now=). My main problem is that i can't punish when my opponents make mistakes in their josekis (and believe me the majority does including some high level kyu and some dans), that's why i wanted to buy Correcting and Punishing Joseki mistakes, obviously it's a book to be read when i'll be better at josekis, but i was thinking it may give me some ideas to punish some of my opponents mistakes =P! as for Attack and Defense, I already read some parts of it once (was hard to grasp then), and i will give it another read a bit later to get more knowledge =)! As for life and death, you're absolutely right, i need more skills in that part to imrove my reading :mrgreen: !
Author:  judicata [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
I forgot about Get Strong at Tesuji - really great book. I started it at around 12 or 13 kyu and found it a good mix of moderate-easy problems and difficult ones. One of my favorite problem books.

Also, on "punishing" joseki mistakes... It is important to remember (as someone on these forums recently said), that many mistakes punish themselves. If you attempt to punish it, you often end up making it look like a good move. Or, alternatively, the mistake will leave the option of a big endgame move--and it would be a mistake to try to exploit it immediately.

The point is, learn good shape and good reading, and you'll be punishing mistakes before you realize it.
Author:  nagano [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
DO NOT read 38 Basic Joseki now, unless you really want to. It was the first book I read (because I didn't have a clue what to study) and you will not really understand much of the material until you are at least 5 kyu. Plus many things in it are now outdated. I haven't read Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go, but from what I've heard of it that would be a good theory book for you to read next. But life and death problems to improve your reading ability are really the most important. 1001 Life and Death Problems, by Kiseido, is a good place to start.
Author:  karaklis [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
I am very much with Judicata. The best books are:

- Get Strong at Tesuji
- 1001 Life and Death Problems
- Graded Go Problems for Beginners (Vol. 3 would be fitting to your strength)
- Attack and Defense (the best theory book available in English)

I would add

- Making Good Shape

to the list. The theory part is good, the practice part is tougher.

I do not recommend Kageyama's "Lessons in the Fundamentals", because I didn't get much out of it. Some others say it's the best English go book on the market. So it depends very much on your liking.

Dictionary of basic tesuji is probably still a bit difficult for your strength. I have all four volumes and most of the problems are still too tough for me (will pick them up again at 4-5k).

And welcome to the forums :D
Author:  GoCat [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
Just spotted this on my shelf.... a book I recall being very good at about your strength: Fundamental Principles of Go, by Yilun Yang. Slate & Shell.
Author:  xed_over [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
I have "Punishing and correcting Joseki mistakes", and its not as helpful as it sounds on the cover. Its basically only a few examples from the author's games. I was not familar with any of the joseki in the first place, and the discussion about punishing was not obvious and was way over my head.

I'd go with what judicata says here...
judicata wrote:
Also, on "punishing" joseki mistakes... It is important to remember (as someone on these forums recently said), that many mistakes punish themselves. If you attempt to punish it, you often end up making it look like a good move. Or, alternatively, the mistake will leave the option of a big endgame move--and it would be a mistake to try to exploit it immediately.

The point is, learn good shape and good reading, and you'll be punishing mistakes before you realize it.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
nagano wrote:
DO NOT read 38 Basic Joseki now...


I would disagree with this. Although, as Nagano says, you may not understand it all, at 11K you can get enough out of it to make it worth your time. If you want to study joseki, you have to start someplace, and 38 Basic Joseki may be as good as any to start.

The second reason that I would recommend it, even if you don't understand any of it, is to get an equal footing in the middle game. Too often, beginners get beaten in joseki, don't know it, and enter the middle game at a disadvantage. This delays and corrupts their understanding of the middle game.

So memorize enough of the 38 to get a decent start so you can learn how to play the middle game. Keep in mind that you are leapfrogging. Make sure that, someday, you come back to those josekis and try to understand them.


And, yes, definitely get Kageyama's 'Fundamentals'. It should be the second book you get after a beginner's book. I'm 1D and I re-read it at least once a year.
Author:  Jash [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
Thank u all for your advices, they were all very helpful :D !

@GoCat: thx for pointing to Fundamental Principles of Go, i checked its contents and it seems as a very good choice for 12 to 5 kyu.

Globally, i guess Fundamental Principles of Go and Lessons in the fundamentals of go are must have at my level. As for the Tesuji dictionaries i may buy them and keep them for later until i get better at Life and death and i finish reading and understanding davies's Tesuji :mrgreen: !
Author:  Stefany93 [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
'' Opening Theory Made Easy '' by Otake Hideo - He is an awesome author and his book is great. Read it! :idea:
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
Stefany93 wrote:
'' Opening Theory Made Easy '' by Otake Hideo - He is an awesome author and his book is great. Read it! :idea:

I agree. This book really helps you sort out where and what you should be playing, both in the opening and in the middlegame.
Author:  walleye [ Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
I doubt any of the books mentioned will help you improve your go. Most likely it will be a waste of time and money.

If your goal is to improve then

1) go through this free tsumego collection ten times http://tsumego.tasuki.org/cho-1-elementary.pdf
2) have your games reviewed by stronger players
Author:  judicata [ Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
walleye wrote:
I doubt any of the books mentioned will help you improve your go. Most likely it will be a waste of time and money.

If your goal is to improve then

1) go through this free tsumego collection ten times http://tsumego.tasuki.org/cho-1-elementary.pdf
2) have your games reviewed by stronger players


I agree with your suggests (1) and (2) insofar as they suggest working through tsumego and reviewing games with stronger players.

But I don't know what your first statement is based on--you say that you doubt "any of the books mentioned will help improve your goal." First, many of the books discussed were tsumego books. What is the reasoning behind your statement that tsumego books wouldn't help someone improve, but an online tsumego collection would? :-? Second, books have undoubtedly helped me (and other people I know) improve. Would that time be better spent reviewing a game with strong players? Perhaps, but often I can read a book when I cannot review a game with a strong player.

If you really meant to say that the books are not cost-effective, that would make a little more sense. But I would still disagree.
Author:  walleye [ Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
judicata wrote:

But I don't know what your first statement is based on


oops, sorry. I meant the books he mentioned. Although the same applies to many other recommendations.

A little metaphor:
Suppose you want to learn French. How would you go about it? You could get a bunch of grammar books and dictionaries, but I doubt you will be able to speak French any time soon. This is not how most people learn to speak a language.

Books are good for entertainment or as a reference.

As for the problem collections, he needs to find something appropriate for his level. He must be able to solve most problems in a couple of minutes or less. I suspect most of the problems from "1001 Life & Death Problems" or "Get Strong at Tesuji" would be to difficult for him.
Author:  karaklis [ Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
walleye wrote:
go through this free tsumego collection ten times http://tsumego.tasuki.org/cho-1-elementary.pdf
...
I suspect most of the problems from "1001 Life & Death Problems" or "Get Strong at Tesuji" would be to difficult for him.

When I was at his level, I just got to problem 26 or 29 of the online collection and had to give up, because no solution was given. Shortly after that I started with "1001 L&D Problems" and since the solutions were given, I quickly learnt the basic techniques that are used to solve L&D problems. Just for fun I have worked through the online collection again, and it was quite easy, a few minutes for the first 60 or so problems.

Many of the problems of the online collection are the same as in "1001 L&D Problems", so I'd rather recommend the latter.
Author:  judicata [ Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
walleye wrote:
judicata wrote:

But I don't know what your first statement is based on


oops, sorry. I meant the books he mentioned. Although the same applies to many other recommendations.

A little metaphor:
Suppose you want to learn French. How would you go about it? You could get a bunch of grammar books and dictionaries, but I doubt you will be able to speak French any time soon. This is not how most people learn to speak a language.


That makes more sense, though I still somewhat disagree. First, I completely agree that, at some point, you must play with stronger players and review games to progress. But books can help you get stronger. The French analogy isn't completely applicable; for example, you can learn how to write better from studying books (e.g. grammar and style), and you can learn math from books. But I think our disagreements are minor.
Author:  Numsgil [ Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
Wilcox has some good stuff I like to pimp out on the forums since I'm not sure they have much exposure and I've found them really useful. He likes to present simple rules that are easy to follow, without emphasis on complex reading, so they'd be doubly especially useful as a DDK. Most of the stuff in these books isn't explained elsewhere, or is explained far less clear cut. He's a programmer, and I'm a programmer, so I think that's a lot of why I found it easy to go through. Most go books I have are not nearly as clearcut with what they're trying to show.

I got the EZ-GO book (it comes as a PDF), and the sector and contact fights (they come as software. Really an interactive book with tests and quizes to see if you understand the material), and I think all three are solid products and really explained a lot of things I'd been wondering about and a lot of things I didn't even know I didn't know.

...

Opening Theory Made Easy - Get this. This was my first book. I was maybe 13k at the time, and I found it incredibly useful. It's not very long, and the principles are very accessible to DDK.

Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go - You won't get much out of this until you're stronger (I find it almost reasonable to go through at my level. It was too hard when I first got it). Except that it is entertaining to read.

Anyway, those are all theory books. You need to do problems too, but those are less fun to talk about :)
Author:  palapiku [ Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
The stronger I get (4k now), the more I am convinced that the best way to improve, at least until dan level, is by improving your reading.

Doing other stuff might be more fun, and it might get you a little stronger, but it kinda misses the point of what go is all about. And it gives you a false confidence of thinking you know what you're doing. This held me back for a long time.

Any strategic considerations you need you will very quickly learn by getting a couple of your games reviewed by stronger players.
Author:  kgsbaduk [ Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Seeking opinion about books
If you have money its better to buy 1 year membership in Guo Juan's audio lectures. http://internetgoschool.com there are plenty of very interesting topics. I bought it 2 or 3 weeks ago and i very much stonger now. Also i can understand much more from games strong dans. Also i do some tsumegos :)
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