It is currently Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:20 am

 All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]

 Page 16 of 19 [ 368 posts ] Go to page Previous  1 ... 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19  Next
 Print view Previous topic | Next topic
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Thermography #301 Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:33 am
 Honinbo

Posts: 10903
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3364
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
It is not that this Three Points without Capturing position is worth -2 by territory scoring, it is worth -2 by the Japanese 1989 rules. By other territory rules it is worth -3, as advertised.

Yes Bill. Assume I am using J89 rules. How I translate to the CGT game the fact that the Three Points without Capturing position is worth -2 rather than -3?

Wing it.

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Concerning seki let's take a more general position with eyes and dead stones:

`[go]\$\$B Seki\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | C B W C W W C |\$\$ | B C W W X W B |\$\$ | W W W X X X W |\$\$ | X X X . X W W |\$\$ | . . . X X W C |\$\$ | . . . . X W B |\$\$ | . . . . X W C |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

Area counting : if I understand your normalization I count 15 white stones against 4 black stones and I normalized the position to -11.

Well, you subtract the stones, so to normalize you add 11 to the local area score.

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Thus the area looks like a game of the form -11 + G with G being a seki counted 0.

Why count it as 0? It's not 0 in CGT. We're not normalizing to J89.

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
As a go player I evaluate the position 3 points for black and 21 points for white for a total of -18.

BTW in territory scoring I count this position +4 (at the very end of the gam, after the last dame point, white can force the capture of 4 black stones).

How translate in CGT game such information concerning the rules used?

Except for the group tax. area scoring normalizes well into CGT.

Let's play this out in CGT at temperature -1.

`[go]\$\$Wc White first.\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | C B W 7 W W 1 |\$\$ | B C W W X W B |\$\$ | W W W X X X W |\$\$ | X X X . X W W |\$\$ | . . . X X W 3 |\$\$ | 8 . . . X W B |\$\$ | 6 . . . X W 2 |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

at captures connects

Result: -6 (counting and but not the Black territory.

`[go]\$\$Bc Black first\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | C X W 8 W W 4 |\$\$ | X C W W X W X |\$\$ | W W W X X X W |\$\$ | X X X . X W W |\$\$ | . . . X X W 2 |\$\$ | . . . . X W B |\$\$ | 5 7 9 . X W 1 |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

at captures connects

Result: -7

So by CGT the seki is worth -7.

Now let's count it by area scoring. It should be -7 - 11 = -18.

`[go]\$\$B Seki\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | C B W W W W W |\$\$ | B C W W X W W |\$\$ | W W W X X X W |\$\$ | X X X . X W W |\$\$ | . . . X X W W |\$\$ | . . . . X W W |\$\$ | . . . . X W C |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

Each player has one point of territory. So let's just count the stones. 2 stones vs. 20 stones. Area score = -18, as advertised.

_________________
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #302 Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:56 am
 Lives in gote

Posts: 516
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
Bill Spight wrote:
Except for the group tax. area scoring normalizes well into CGT.

I am a little worried about seeing you mentionned group tax.
Does that mean that in seki with eyes in only one side you have to adapt your count?

`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | . O . X . O . |\$\$ | O O O X O O O |\$\$ | X X O O X X X |\$\$ | X X X X X . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

How do you proceed?

Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #303 Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:33 am
 Honinbo

Posts: 10903
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3364
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Except for the group tax. area scoring normalizes well into CGT.

I am a little worried about seeing you mentionned group tax.
Does that mean that in seki with eyes in only one side you have to adapt your count?

Yes. To eliminate the group tax from his rules Berlekamp had to go to a bit of trouble. IIRC, at some point he had an encore with all remaining stones immortalized.
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | . O . X . O . |\$\$ | O O O X O O O |\$\$ | X X O O X X X |\$\$ | X X X X X . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

How do you proceed?

In the seki neither side wishes to play, so the CGT score is 0. But if the stones are immortalized:

`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | 6 W 2 B 1 W 4 |\$\$ | W W W B W W W |\$\$ | X X W W X X X |\$\$ | X X X X X . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

The local score is -2, as with the marked stones immortalized, White can afford to fill the two eyes.

_________________
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #304 Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:49 am
 Lives in gote

Posts: 516
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Except for the group tax. area scoring normalizes well into CGT.

I am a little worried about seeing you mentionned group tax.
Does that mean that in seki with eyes in only one side you have to adapt your count?

Yes. To eliminate the group tax from his rules Berlekamp had to go to a bit of trouble. IIRC, at some point he had an encore with all remaining stones immortalized.
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | . O . X . O . |\$\$ | O O O X O O O |\$\$ | X X O O X X X |\$\$ | X X X X X . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

How do you proceed?

In the seki neither side wishes to play, so the CGT score is 0. But if the stones are immortalized:

`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | 6 W 2 B 1 W 4 |\$\$ | W W W B W W W |\$\$ | X X W W X X X |\$\$ | X X X X X . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

The local score is -2, as with the marked stones immortalized, White can afford to fill the two eyes.

Oops it looks like an adaptation of CGT to specific rules with adding complexity. CGT can be a success on go player community only if it is efficient (OC) but not too complex.
My view is that it is completly unuseful to try to resolve in CGT zugswang positions (I mean positions like seki or three points without capture, which will be definitly resolved after the last dame had been played).
In one part such resolution is highly dependent on the specific rules and will add difficulties on CGT, and in other part these positions are very known to any go player and easily resolved by them.

Do you see a problem if a go player, using CGT, replace systematically any zugswang positions encountered during analasis by the number corresponding to the resolution of this position by the go player in accordance to the rules used?
That way CGT stays not too complex while go players could not be upset by the resolution of these zugswang positions which are, most of the time, quite obvious.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #305 Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:51 am
 Honinbo

Posts: 10903
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3364
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Oops it looks like an adaptation of CGT to specific rules with adding complexity. CGT can be a success on go player community only if it is efficient (OC) but not too complex.
My view is that it is completly unuseful to try to resolve in CGT zugswang positions (I mean positions like seki or three points without capture, which will be definitly resolved after the last dame had been played).
In one part such resolution is highly dependent on the specific rules and will add difficulties on CGT, and in other part these positions are very known to any go player and easily resolved by them.

Do you see a problem if a go player, using CGT, replace systematically any zugswang positions encountered during analasis by the number corresponding to the resolution of this position by the go player in accordance to the rules used?
That way CGT stays not too complex while go players could not be upset by the resolution of these zugswang positions which are, most of the time, quite obvious.

Well, I have a certain fondness for a group tax.

I am also not bothered by variations in the rules of games. My preference going forward is for Button Go, which can easily be implemented by a small change in the AGA rules, and which has already been used in international play.

All that aside, I think that one major value of CGT is the demonstration that territory scoring is not illogical, as has been claimed and widely believed.

And as practical matters, chilled go infinitesimals, difference games, and ko evaluation are significant advances in go theory.

Edit: And, OC, thermography agrees with traditional go evaluation, but adds potentially important information.

_________________
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Last edited by Bill Spight on Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #306 Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:11 pm
 Lives in gote

Posts: 516
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
Bill Spight wrote:
And as practical matters, chilled go infinitesimals, difference games, and ko evaluation are significant advances in go theory.

Yes Bill. In addition I like very much thermography and its mean value calculation.

 This post by Gérard TAILLE was liked by: Bill Spight
Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #307 Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:16 am
 Lives in gote

Posts: 516
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
When I studied infinitesimals I never encounterd ko situation. Are they excluded from the definition?

Here is an example:
`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | . X X a X O . . . |\$\$ | O X . X O O . . . |\$\$ | . O X . X . . . . |\$\$ | . O O X X . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

Each move to win the ko is worth 1 point as any infinitesimal.

My question is the following : is this position an infinitesimal?
In any case does the play of infinitesimals take into account such position?

Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #308 Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:47 am
 Honinbo

Posts: 10903
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3364
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
When I studied infinitesimals I never encounterd ko situation. Are they excluded from the definition?

Here is an example:
`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | . X X a X O . . . |\$\$ | O X . X O O . . . |\$\$ | . O X . X . . . . |\$\$ | . O O X X . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

Each move to win the ko is worth 1 point as any infinitesimal.

Very nice.

Quote:
My question is the following : is this position an infinitesimal?

There are kos that gain 1 point. David Wolfe told me that there are no ko infinitesimals. I never checked with Berlekamp.

Quote:
In any case does the play of infinitesimals take into account such position?

Except for the possibility that such a ko might not be settled at temperature 1 in territory scoring, but later in the game, you take it in to account in Chilled Go.

_________________
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #309 Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:37 am
 Lives in gote

Posts: 516
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
When I studied infinitesimals I never encounterd ko situation. Are they excluded from the definition?

Here is an example:
`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | . X X a X O . . . |\$\$ | O X . X O O . . . |\$\$ | . O X . X . . . . |\$\$ | . O O X X . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

Each move to win the ko is worth 1 point as any infinitesimal.

Very nice.

Quote:
My question is the following : is this position an infinitesimal?

There are kos that gain 1 point. David Wolfe told me that there are no ko infinitesimals. I never checked with Berlekamp.

OK the game above G is not an infinitesimal.
More generally due to the ko you cannot compare, add or substract (=> no difference game) the game G to any other game.
Because of that, in one way we can say the game G is completly outside the CGT scope but in another way we are able to give a score and a miai value to G and we can even draw a thermograph and that means that such position is taken into account by CGT.
Yes you already told me that ko may be a mess for CGT. The apparent condradiction above proves this fact

Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #310 Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:50 am
 Honinbo

Posts: 10903
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3364
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
When I studied infinitesimals I never encounterd ko situation. Are they excluded from the definition?

Here is an example:
`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | . X X a X O . . . |\$\$ | O X . X O O . . . |\$\$ | . O X . X . . . . |\$\$ | . O O X X . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

Each move to win the ko is worth 1 point as any infinitesimal.

Very nice.

Quote:
My question is the following : is this position an infinitesimal?

There are kos that gain 1 point. David Wolfe told me that there are no ko infinitesimals. I never checked with Berlekamp.

OK the game above G is not an infinitesimal.
More generally due to the ko you cannot compare, add or substract (=> no difference game) the game G to any other game.
Because of that, in one way we can say the game G is completly outside the CGT scope but in another way we are able to give a score and a miai value to G and we can even draw a thermograph and that means that such position is taken into account by CGT.
Yes you already told me that ko may be a mess for CGT. The apparent condradiction above proves this fact

I actually think that the main thing that shows that kos are not combinatorial games is the fact that a ko threat may be equal to 0 as a combinatorial game, and therefore we cannot say that K + 0 = K, where K is a ko.

_________________
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #311 Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:40 pm
 Lives in gote

Posts: 516
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | . X X a X O . . . |\$\$ | O X . X O O . . . |\$\$ | . O X . X . . . . |\$\$ | . O O X X . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

Well, assume now we can tell black (or white) is komaster.
With this new information can the position be considered as a CGT position that can be compared, added or substracted to other CGT positions?
BTW in this hypothesis (I mean it exists a komaster) how do you calculate the score and the miai value of the position?

Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #312 Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:02 pm
 Honinbo

Posts: 10903
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3364
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | . X X a X O . . . |\$\$ | O X . X O O . . . |\$\$ | . O X . X . . . . |\$\$ | . O O X X . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

Well, assume now we can tell black (or white) is komaster.
With this new information can the position be considered as a CGT position that can be compared, added or substracted to other CGT positions?

Komaster does not do it. There is still a ko fight. We just know who wins it.

Komonster probably does it. For instance, when Black is komonster this position is like 2*. When White is komonster it acts like {2|-1}.

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
BTW in this hypothesis (I mean it exists a komaster) how do you calculate the score and the miai value of the position?

This is a placid ko, so the mast value and temperature are the same regardless of who is komaster. The difference lies in the thermograph below temperature 1. When White is komaster the right wall in that range is the line, v = -1 + 2t. When Black is komaster the right wall in that range is v = 1 - t, the same as the left wall. That's because when Black is komaster the local plays when White plays first in that range are White takes ko, Black takes back, Black wins ko.

_________________
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #313 Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:29 am
 Lives in gote

Posts: 516
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | . X X a X O . . . |\$\$ | O X . X O O . . . |\$\$ | . O X . X . . . . |\$\$ | . O O X X . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

Well, assume now we can tell black (or white) is komaster.
With this new information can the position be considered as a CGT position that can be compared, added or substracted to other CGT positions?

Komaster does not do it. There is still a ko fight. We just know who wins it.

Komonster probably does it. For instance, when Black is komonster this position is like 2*. When White is komonster it acts like {2|-1}.

if Black is komonster I do not understand why this position is like 2*. Why not simply 2 ?

Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #314 Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:33 am
 Honinbo

Posts: 10903
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3364
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | . X X a X O . . . |\$\$ | O X . X O O . . . |\$\$ | . O X . X . . . . |\$\$ | . O O X X . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

Well, assume now we can tell black (or white) is komaster.
With this new information can the position be considered as a CGT position that can be compared, added or substracted to other CGT positions?

Komaster does not do it. There is still a ko fight. We just know who wins it.

Komonster probably does it. For instance, when Black is komonster this position is like 2*. When White is komonster it acts like {2|-1}.

if Black is komonster I do not understand why this position is like 2*. Why not simply 2 ?

The * is for filling the ko at temperature 0. And I should have written {2|-1*} for the same reason.

_________________
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #315 Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:28 am
 Lives in gote

Posts: 516
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | . X X a X O . . . |\$\$ | O X . X O O . . . |\$\$ | . O X . X . . . . |\$\$ | . O O X X . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

if Black is komonster I do not understand why this position is like 2*. Why not simply 2 ?

The * is for filling the ko at temperature 0. And I should have written {2|-1*} for the same reason.

That was my interpretation but it is not clear : because * = {0|0} and because black is komonster the resulting position do not allow white to play towards 0. That is why I do not see a "*" here.

Let's take another example:
`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | a O X . O . O |\$\$ | X X X X O O O |\$\$ | O O O O X X X |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

Here again black will wait temperature drops to 0 before playing at "a" to gain a prisoner.
But it is not a {0|0}=* because white cannot play.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #316 Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:38 am
 Honinbo

Posts: 10903
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3364
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | . X X a X O . . . |\$\$ | O X . X O O . . . |\$\$ | . O X . X . . . . |\$\$ | . O O X X . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

if Black is komonster I do not understand why this position is like 2*. Why not simply 2 ?

The * is for filling the ko at temperature 0. And I should have written {2|-1*} for the same reason.

That was my interpretation but it is not clear : because * = {0|0} and because black is komonster the resulting position do not allow white to play towards 0. That is why I do not see a "*" here.

Black komonster: Local play at temperature 0.

`[go]\$\$Bc Black first\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | 3 X X 1 X O . . . |\$\$ | O X . X O O . . . |\$\$ | 2 O X . X . . . . |\$\$ | . O O X X . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

`[go]\$\$Wc White first\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | 5 X X 1 B O . . . |\$\$ | O X . X O O . . . |\$\$ | 3 O X . X . . . . |\$\$ | . O O X X . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

takes ko back, fills ko

Being komonster at territory scoring means that the winner of the ko can wait until temperature 0 to win it. She cannot leave it unsettled, she can only delay the win.

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Let's take another example:
`[go]\$\$Bc\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | a O X . O . O |\$\$ | X X X X O O O |\$\$ | O O O O X X X |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

Here again black will wait temperature drops to 0 before playing at "a" to gain a prisoner.
But it is not a {0|0}=* because white cannot play.

The Japanese rules require Black to capture the stone at temperature 0. As you point out, the position is worth 1, not 1*.

Under those rules I suppose that we could write this game as {0|}. {shrug}

_________________
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #317 Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:02 pm
 Lives in gote

Posts: 516
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:

Let's take another example:
`[go]\$\$Bc\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | a O X . O . O |\$\$ | X X X X O O O |\$\$ | O O O O X X X |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

Here again black will wait temperature drops to 0 before playing at "a" to gain a prisoner.
But it is not a {0|0}=* because white cannot play.

The Japanese rules require Black to capture the stone at temperature 0. As you point out, the position is worth 1, not 1*.

Under those rules I suppose that we could write this game as {0|}. {shrug}

BTW Bill, you often show that some game resolution may be made by playing at temperature -1, typically to capture opponent stones. Here in the diagram above , if I play under J89 rules (I mean no points in seki), I know as Go player that I have to capture the black stone at temperature 0. But as CGT guy playing with a tax how I know that I have to capture an opponent stone at temperature 0 rather than at temperature -1 ?

Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #318 Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 1:06 pm
 Honinbo

Posts: 10903
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3364
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:

Let's take another example:
`[go]\$\$Bc\$\$ -----------------\$\$ | a O X . O . O |\$\$ | X X X X O O O |\$\$ | O O O O X X X |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------[/go]`

Here again black will wait temperature drops to 0 before playing at "a" to gain a prisoner.
But it is not a {0|0}=* because white cannot play.

The Japanese rules require Black to capture the stone at temperature 0. As you point out, the position is worth 1, not 1*.

Under those rules I suppose that we could write this game as {0|}. {shrug}

BTW Bill, you often show that some game resolution may be made by playing at temperature -1, typically to capture opponent stones. Here in the diagram above , if I play under J89 rules (I mean no points in seki), I know as Go player that I have to capture the black stone at temperature 0. But as CGT guy playing with a tax how I know that I have to capture an opponent stone at temperature 0 rather than at temperature -1 ?

You don't have to capture the stone at temperature 0 under CGT rules with prisoner return and a group tax.

With 1 play to capture the White stone and 1 play to return it, we can write the game this way:

{{{ | }|| }||| } = {{0| }|| } = {1| } = 2

The Black moves are made at temperature -1.

The J89 rules require the capture, if played, to be played at temperature 0.

_________________
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #319 Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:14 am
 Lives in gote

Posts: 516
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 30
Rank: 1er dan
`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -------------------------\$\$ | X X . O . a X . . . O |\$\$ | X X O . O X . X X O O |\$\$ | X . X X X O X X O O O |\$\$ | X X O O O O O O O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------------[/go]`

Calculating a thermograph and a miai value when each player see an interest to play in the region is quite logical. But what about a position with a ko in which each player prefers that the other one plays first?
In the above position white can begin a ko by playing at "a" but it is better to wait first for a black move doesn't it?
My question : at which temperature a player will play here (assuming a no ko threat environment). Is it the the same temperature for white and for black?

Same question for the following one in which white has a local ko threat at "b".
`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -------------------------\$\$ | X X . O . a X . . . O |\$\$ | X . O b O X . X X O O |\$\$ | X . X X X O X X O O O |\$\$ | X X O O O O O O O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------------[/go]`

Top

 Post subject: Re: Thermography #320 Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:09 am
 Honinbo

Posts: 10903
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3364
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -------------------------\$\$ | X X . O . a X . . . O |\$\$ | X X O . O X . X X O O |\$\$ | X . X X X O X X O O O |\$\$ | X X O O O O O O O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------------[/go]`

Calculating a thermograph and a miai value when each player see an interest to play in the region is quite logical. But what about a position with a ko in which each player prefers that the other one plays first?
In the above position white can begin a ko by playing at "a" but it is better to wait first for a black move doesn't it?

`[go]\$\$B\$\$ -------------------------\$\$ | X X . O . a X . . . O |\$\$ | X X O . O X . X X O O |\$\$ | X . X X X O X X O O O |\$\$ | X B O O O O O O O . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |\$\$ -----------------------[/go]`

There is a lot going on in this position. Are the Black stones on the left immortal? If so, Black a prevents the ko and wins the semeai. If not, the problem is ill defined.

Often the player with fewer stones at stake should start the ko, but OC, each position is different.

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
My question : at which temperature a player will play here (assuming a no ko threat environment). Is it the the same temperature for white and for black?

There is a temperature (sometimes more than one) at which each player will be indifferent between making a local play or not, immediately below which at least one player will prefer to make a local play.

_________________
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top

 Display posts from previous: All posts1 day7 days2 weeks1 month3 months6 months1 year Sort by AuthorPost timeSubject AscendingDescending
 Page 16 of 19 [ 368 posts ] Go to page Previous  1 ... 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19  Next

 All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]

#### Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

 You cannot post new topics in this forumYou cannot reply to topics in this forumYou cannot edit your posts in this forumYou cannot delete your posts in this forumYou cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
 Jump to:  Select a forum ------------------ Life In 19x19.com General Topics    Introductions and Guidelines    Off Topic    Announcements    General Go Chat    Beginners    Amateurs    Professionals       Lee Sedol vs Gu Li    Go Rules    Forum/Site Suggestions and Bugs    Creative writing    Tournaments       Ride share to tournaments Improve Your Game    Game Analysis    Study Group    Teachers/Club Leaders       Teacher advertisements    Study Journals L19²GO (Malkovich)    1-on-1 Malkovich games    Big Brother Malkovich games    Rengo Games    Other versions of turn-based games Go Gear    Go Books    Go Book Reviews    Computer Go    Gobans and other equipment    Trading Post    New Products/Upgrades/Sales Go Club Forums    Go Club Discussions       Honinbo Go League    American Go Association Forum       Go Congress 2011 volunteers       AGA volunteers ( non-congress)    Australian Go Association    European Go Federation Forum    Singapore Weiqi Association    KGS    ASR League    IGS    OGS    Tygem    WBaduk    Turn Based Servers    Insei League Events    Kaya.gs       King of the Hill