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 Post subject: 19 point squeeze trick play
Post #1 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:21 pm 
Gosei
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Posts: 1976
Location: Ghent, Belgium
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Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
In my last game the opponent pulled the 19 point trick play on me but failed during the execution. In the review with KataGo I came across novel insights on the trick play:

https://senseis.xmp.net/?NineteenPointTrickPlay

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 Post subject: Re: 19 point squeeze trick play
Post #2 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:01 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 259
Liked others: 17
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Rank: panda 4 dan
IGS: kvasir
You show this on senseis's

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . 5 . O . . .
$$ | . . 3 X X O X . .
$$ | . O . X O O X . .
$$ | . . X X O O X . .
$$ | . 1 O O X O . . .
$$ | . . . 2 X 6 4 . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .[/go]


Without starting the engines I want to ask about the following diagram.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . O . . .
$$ | 5 4 6 X X O X . .
$$ | . O . X O O X . .
$$ | 3 2 X X O O X . .
$$ | . 1 O O X O . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: 19 point squeeze trick play
Post #3 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:00 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1976
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 296
Was liked: 882
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . 5 3 O . . .
$$ | O X X X X O X . .
$$ | 9 O 0 X O O X . .
$$ | O X X X O O X . .
$$ | 7 O O O X O 1 . .
$$ | 8 4 6 2 X . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .[/go]


Yeah, let's think a little without the engines :)
The question then is: can White avoid the squeeze? From the outside, Black wins the capturing race.

I'll check later. Perhaps the answer here is that it's affordable to play this way and claim/attack the top on a large scale.

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 Post subject: Re: 19 point squeeze trick play
Post #4 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:50 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1976
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 296
Was liked: 882
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . O . . .
$$ | 5 4 6 X X O X . .
$$ | . O . X O O X . .
$$ | 3 2 X X O O X . .
$$ | . 1 O O X O . . .
$$ | . . 0 . X 9 . . .
$$ | . 7 X . . . . . .
$$ | . 8 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .[/go]


The key move here seems to be :w7: allowing to get out of the squeeze by setting up a ladder at :w9:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . 4 . . . O . . .
$$ | O X X X X O X . .
$$ | . O . X O O X . .
$$ | O X X X O O X . .
$$ | 3 O O O X O . . .
$$ | . 1 X . X O . 7 .
$$ | 5 O X . a . . . .
$$ | . X 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


The corner becomes seki and the fighting may continue on either side. The result is fairly even.
Note that an atari at A would disturb the seki and White would have to fill an outside liberty. In other words A is gote for White.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | 8 5 6 C 7 O . . .
$$ | O X X X X O X . .
$$ | 9 O . X O O X . .
$$ | O X X X O O X . .
$$ | 3 O O O X O . . .
$$ | C 1 X C X O . . .
$$ | 4 O X . a . . . .
$$ | 0 X 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


It would be unwise for Black to play :w4: here instead, for the corner will become an approach ko for Black.

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 Post subject: Re: 19 point squeeze trick play
Post #5 Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:22 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 259
Liked others: 17
Was liked: 30
Rank: panda 4 dan
IGS: kvasir
Looks legit but I'd point out that white has already gained 4-5 points with the hamate at this point.

I have been looking at the only game I could find of pros playing this trick move, well it is a 2 stone handicap game with Shusaku taking black and avoiding the hamate in a way that losses ~3 pts.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . O X X X , . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O O O O X . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X O O X O . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , X O O O X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I find it interesting to consider which moves the computer considers to be bad in the standard "fall for it" line, that is how do we lose ~30pts playing like this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . .
$$ | . . . O 1 5 O . .
$$ | . . . 6 X . . . .
$$ | . . X 7 8 9 . . .
$$ | . . . . 0 . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . .
$$ | . . . O O X 2 . .
$$ | . 1 . O X X O . .
$$ | . 7 6 O X 5 4 . .
$$ | . 8 X X O X . . .
$$ | . 9 0 . O . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . 7 9 X 0 . .
$$ | . . 5 O O X O . .
$$ | . X . O X X O . .
$$ | . X O O X X O . .
$$ | 1 3 X X O X 8 . .
$$ | . X O 2 O 6 4 . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Using my arbitrary rule that bad move is >=1.5 pts loss, then :b9: :b11: :b23: :b25: :b27: and :b29: are bad. Notice how the last 4 black moves are bad, this is a pitfall for many diagrams, basically black keeps making mistakes after the first mistake. If :b9: is anyway bad, then we need to change that move but here we have given white a clear opportunity to go all-out in the fight. Starting an unpredictable fight must be a success for white when he plays a trick move in order to create any chance to win like in the Shusaku game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm9
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O O X . . .
$$ | . . . O X X O . .
$$ | . . . O X . 1 . .
$$ | . . X X O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


The only way to avoid the trick without compromising or allowing white to start a huge fight appears to be the traditional way.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm9
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . .
$$ | . . . O 1 . O . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]


Btw, black has a more effective way to counter attack in the Shusaku game.

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